[YAWP] Thoughts on ironman mode

[Will]

After recent wins with a warrior and ranger I decided to try my hand at the ironman mode. I chose a dwarf paladin as it seems this class has the best survivability coupled with utility spells. This combo can probably be seen as "easy mode" for ironman. The game was basically split in 3 parts: the race for essential abilities; the race for xp; and finally the race for speed and consumables.

This character in particular (ladder link) was insanely lucky (by my standards at least). He found Nimloth at dlvl 13 which really made life easier: +3 speed helped a lot with overburdening, +3 stealth helped a lot to avoid some monsters, see_invis was taken care of and the weapon is in general really good for a fighter.

On dlvl 19 he found a BDSM (Black) of Speed (+4). It's pretty nice to have +7 speed before dlvl 20. He found Colluin at the same time which he kept until the very end. The activation on this cloak is just too good to pass up in an ironman game.

Other items of note: Holnenneth at dlvl 28 took care of detection for a while; 'Aglarang' at dlvl 32 was actually the weapon he killed Morgoth with...; at dlvl 49 Itangast dropped Cubragol (which took care of any issues with speed that he might have had), Hithlomir (rNether) and Oromë (which he also kept until the very end as main weapon); and finally Narya at dlvl 70 meant he could start diving fast... the last piece of the puzzle was Wrath of God (Banish and *Destruction*) at dlvl 89 and he was all set. 2 scrolls of Deep Descent later both Sauron and Morgoth were dead.

Resists were an issue all along but I focused on the holy trinity of poison, dark and nether. Shards and sound were nice to have, nexus wasn't an issue any more after all stats were maxxed. Disenchant was problematic so I kept Belthronding (at first) then an Amulet of Weaponmaster as swaps for those mobs specifically. I never had rChaos which meant a lot of TOing away and some really close calls...

Re: ironman it's a nice change of pace compared to the usual game. The early issues are food and light, which really kept me nervous for a while. Finding the Phial was a blessing as it freed a couple of slots (oil + back-up torches). After that I had a hard time getting an item with FA: my set-up wasn't as good as it could have been as I had to use lesser items to get it. I also spent most of the game (until finding Narya actually) without Regen which was a PITA.

The toughest part for me was between dlvl 35 and 55 (roughly) as I was falling behind in terms of clvl and stats, and having a hard time with mobs due to spell failure rates and relatively low hp/sp. Once I got enough SP to spam Heal the game was basically over (which is I guess the case for any paladin...)

Consumables were also a PITA. Fortunately I got immunity to fire relatively early, but cold really was a nuisance. My impression is that it should be toned down a bit: I feel a warrior would have no chance whatsoever in the current configuration. Huan could just destroy 3-4 potions per round (and that was with double resist, in case it changes anything). That was truly insane.

Sustains are much more of an issue in ironman. I actually used a ring of bodykeeping for most of the game (actually from dlvl 19 to 70) over "better" rings (speed or damage mostly) because I knew I was a dead man if something drained my STR or CON. In a normal game I don't worry much about sustains, I just recall if things go really wrong.

Overall this game wasn't too tough but as I said this char was lucky, especially re: speed items. Between Cubragol (+10), my 2 main weapons giving +4 and +5, BoS or Stormwalker (+9 and + 6 respectively) and a few more speed items here and there (Narya and Elessar), I spent most of the game with over +20 speed, sometimes close to +30 unbuffed. Ironman depends a lot (mostly?) on drops... I imagine many games are a lot tougher because of this.

[Estie]

Congrats on the iron win.

For FA, amulet of Inertia is excellent if you have some speed from elsewhere.
I remember a warrior of mine also using bodykeeping ring for a long time and having problems maintaining a supply of consumables in the face of elemental menaces.

I thnk paladin is actually not ideal for ironman mode - I would think mage was the best option, but then, playstyle matters.

[Thraalbee]

Congrats on win! Any class but warrior is about the same with ironman. Lack of spell Phase door is a severe limitation but doable of course. Priest has a slight advantage with alter reality which gives you an infinite number of levels if you wish. Useful if your consumables are scarce at dl98.

[Patashu]

Why is Alter Reality allowed in Ironman, anyway? Seems to defeat the point of having a limited supply of levels to play.

[Derakon]

Why is Alter Reality allowed in Ironman, anyway? Seems to defeat the point of having a limited supply of levels to play.

Disabling it would require extra custom coding. *shrug* So much of Angband plays by the honor system anyway. Plus if you manage to get a priest to the point that they can cast the spell, they can probably win anyway; priests are one of the most gear-independent classes in the game.

[Patashu]

That's a fair point!

[Will]

Re: FA I guess that's the luck of the draw. For whatever reason FA items weren't dropping for me. I have to say I didn't really consider Inertia. I probably decided that an Amulet of WIS was a better use for the slot.

Re: class I thought paladin worked well. At early levels hey have a satisfy hunger spell, can light a room, can see invis, can heal themselves a bit, which is all an ironman char really needs. Deep in the dungeon they become almost impossible to kill, and don't have to rely so much on books except for Heal and maybe *Destruction* for the last couple of fights. Every other spell is a bonus that isn't necessary to win.

And it indeed depends on playing style: I like fighters, obviously. I tried a mage but didn't enjoy the glass cannon aspect. To win one has to be careful of course, but as a mage I felt this was way over the top. I don't like "one mistake and you're dead" chars. YMMV.

I thought the game was carefully balanced overall, and it was nice to discover a use for some items. Being constrained to one level, with a potentially heavy cost if going through levels too quickly (i.e. without exploring them fully) puts a different emphasis on things. I was really watching and optimizing my every move at the beginning of the game for fear of lacking light or food later on. I don't have the discipline to carry on for the whole game like that, though.

Even then it certainly made me a better player. It took me ~350k turns to win on the warrior, 250k on the ranger and now 200k on the paladin. I imagine 150k would be doable for me with a mix of efficiency, risk-taking and discipline. Anything below that must be really tough. It was hard to lose some habits: I always took a few extra turns to pick up the gold on the floor (at least this char can retire rich ) or to kill that Night lizard on dlvl 80!

I don't remember exactly but I think I used 3 or 4 scrolls of DD. They helped a lot, especially deep down the dungeon when any level can become lethal.

My one little issue with the last couple of fights is the heavy reliance on *Destruction* in most cases (at least that's what I do), or at a minimum some form of banishment. It seems absolutely critical to be able to take Morgorth one-on-one, and any interference makes the fight so much more dangerous. Are there really some wins that don't involve *Destruction*, Banishment or spamming RoP?

One last question: I had a bit of a scare on dlvl 99 as I TO-ed Sauron away to cast *Destruction* in order to get rid of some baddies. Then it seemed he had disappeared from the level and I wondered what would happen. He 'reappeared' in a corner, though. When I say 'reappeared' I still don't know if he was simply hiding just outside the detection spells I cast, or whether the game forced him to come back? I wonder if there's a contingency plan for that. It would have sucked to have him disappear permanently, wasting 99 levels of ironman effort...

[Derakon]

One last question: I had a bit of a scare on dlvl 99 as I TO-ed Sauron away to cast *Destruction* in order to get rid of some baddies. Then it seemed he had disappeared from the level and I wondered what would happen. He 'reappeared' in a corner, though. When I say 'reappeared' I still don't know if he was simply hiding just outside the detection spells I cast, or whether the game forced him to come back? I wonder if there's a contingency plan for that. It would have sucked to have him disappear permanently, wasting 99 levels of ironman effort...

If Sauron got nailed by Destruction, then he would indeed be removed from the level, and you'd have to hang around waiting for him to respawn like any other monster. Fortunately Sauron and Morgoth are both very common enemies, so in theory you wouldn't have to wait very long...but it's a random thing regardless.

He would also have fully-healed if this happened, though.

[Grotug]

Are there really some wins that don't involve *Destruction*, Banishment or spamming RoP?

I had a strong warrior in non-ironman that beat Morgoth with (well, I died on DL60something and cheated death with forcequit and load), without using any of the above mentioned items. Actually I think I used one banish (or mass banish?) to get rid of some summons. But mostly it was just meleeing away and healing. I think I teleported away at some point and he quickly found me again. I found his destructing of the environment continually to be helpful as it gave me time to heal while he was out of LoS.

My current plan, if I can stop with the stupid deaths, is to beat him without destruction scrolls or RoP. Why isn't it a strategy to teleport away from him when the mobs get too much and let him find you again? He moves significantly faster and more directly than the mobs he summons. I also plan to take out most or all of the uniques before I face him.

[Derakon]

Why isn't it a strategy to teleport away from him when the mobs get too much and let him find you again?

Once you get below, oh 2500' or so, Teleport Self becomes an inherently risky move. It's all too easy for it to drop you right next to an angry pack of plasma hounds or something similar. Of course it probably won't do that, but how many such risks are you willing to take? If you do it enough, eventually it'll get you killed.

This is compounded in the Morgoth fight by the fact that you haven't had a chance to clear any of the level by the time Morgoth shows up, so there are zero "safe zones" to potentially land in.

A variation on that can be useful...in a Destructed zone. Rather than teleport, Phase Door -- the destructed zone will likely mean you'll end up out of LOS of everything, at which point you can simply walk away from all the summons and lead Morgoth away from them. This only works so many times (and gradually gets riskier as more summons appear), but it's a much more controllable technique than using Teleport Self.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

This is compounded in the Morgoth fight by the fact that you haven't had a chance to clear any of the level by the time Morgoth shows up, so there are zero "safe zones" to potentially land in.

I don't bother with this strategy anymore, but one of the techniques I learned from Fizzix's "Let's Play Angband" series was to move around on DL 100 several times, making destruction zones of any pits, etc., TO'ing Morgoth until the level was rendered "safe", then fighting Morgoth in a destructed zone. Then one could teleport self quite safely, likely finding yourself in another destruction zone to await Morgoth.

Now I generally just use one destruction zone and phase door, as Derakon suggested.

[Will]

I don't bother with this strategy anymore, but one of the techniques I learned from Fizzix's "Let's Play Angband" series was to move around on DL 100 several times, making destruction zones of any pits, etc., TO'ing Morgoth until the level was rendered "safe", then fighting Morgoth in a destructed zone. Then one could teleport self quite safely, likely finding yourself in another destruction zone to await Morgoth.

Yes but that technique still uses *Destruction*

I don't like to move around much during the last couple of fights, especially since @ is acting like a magnet for Morgoth. It's much easier to send everybody away. Phase door/Blink sounds like a good option.

[quarague]

I have used the teleport self strategy against Morgoth. I guess I teleport self much more in general than most people here consider safe. One should not combine Teleport other with teleport self as this has a high risk of landing in the same spot. And you should teleport self too often.
I used it in a fight were I had cleared most other uniques beforehand. So when M summoned uniques he got all the dangerous remaining ones in one go. I teleported myself, and my fight with M ended before any of the other uniques had found us.