semi-psuedo variants for non-programmers

[will_asher]

I am not a programmer, but like other people, I also like to make my own version of things. I know most of my game-designing ideas will remain as they are -daydreams, but I recently discovered how easy is it to edit certain things in the game using the text files in the 'edit' subfolder. So I am in the process of making my own semi-psuedo variant of Angband. Obviously, I can't change a lot without knowing the programming language (I don't even know what language Angband is written in), but I'm thankful to whoever created the edit subfolder for making me be able to change what I can change. I have a couple questions about doing this:

1>Would it be against copyright rules to redistribute the changed text files as a semi-psuedo variant?
(I wouldn't expect many people to be interested in something like this anyway, but I'd like to be able to share it in case anyone is interested.)

2>Should there be a new section of the Angband ladder on this site for
dumps from this type of personal variant? (It wouldn't fit on the main ladder when you can (for example) make Ringil appear on level 1 with rareness 1 if you wanted to.) 'cause I'd still like to be able to post dumps even though these wouldn't fit in the main ladder.

3>Is it possible or too much to ask for someone nice who knows how to program to make it so we can change more types of things in the text files in that folder?

thanks

Will

PS: I somlemnly swear not to post such dumps on the main ladder, I realize that that wouldn't be right. I made a separate set of folders for my edited version, so I still have the unchanged version also.

[pav]

You can redistribute your modifications under same license as the original files are (which I imagine is Moria license).

You can't change the variant name as reported in the dump from edit files.

[GSN]

If you can take the time, learn lua. With some variants you can do much more than is allowed by the /edit files, and they are pretty limited in possibilities. You have the most elbow room in r_info, and the least in k_info and f_info. You cannot add new kinds of objects or new potion/wand/rod/staff effects, for example.

[pav]

If you're to learn Lua, you might as well just learn C.

[GSN]

Learning C is not enough, however, to compile Angband; you must also have a grasp of your operating system to know which libraries must be installed etc.

[pav]

I'd say learning C is the hardest part of it, still

[andrewdoull]

If you can take the time, learn lua. With some variants you can do much more than is allowed by the /edit files, and they are pretty limited in possibilities. You have the most elbow room in r_info, and the least in k_info and f_info. You cannot add new kinds of objects or new potion/wand/rod/staff effects, for example.

Except in Unangband. And possibly some other variants... I seem to remember Kamband, or Cthangband having something similar.

Andrew

[Big Al]

3>Is it possible or too much to ask for someone nice who knows how to program to make it so we can change more types of things in the text files in that folder?

It's certainly possible to move more stuff to edit files, however the more important question is, what would you like to see there? I can't imagine that there is a lot more that would efficiently be placed in the edit files. Stuff like spells and such need to coded by hand and wouldn't really work.

I should not to difficult to modify some stuff without extensive programming knowledge; for example, if you want to add a new spell, just look through the code and find all the places where spells are referenced; do some copy and pasting and a bit of editing and you have a new spell, etc.

[andrewdoull]

It's certainly possible to move more stuff to edit files, however the more important question is, what would you like to see there? I can't imagine that there is a lot more that would efficiently be placed in the edit files. Stuff like spells and such need to coded by hand and wouldn't really work.

I should not to difficult to modify some stuff without extensive programming knowledge; for example, if you want to add a new spell, just look through the code and find all the places where spells are referenced; do some copy and pasting and a bit of editing and you have a new spell, etc.

You can do this in edit files: for instance, in Unangband, its quite possible to define a new spell effect, such as a staff of Perilous summoning, which clones all monsters in line of site, by doing the following in spell.txt:

N:344:Perilous Summoning
A:55:33:1
B:LOS:CLONE


and object.txt



N:158:Perilous Summoning
G:_:w
I:55:33:0
W:10:0:50:0
A:10/1:50/1
P:0:1d6:0:0:0
Y:15:2

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.games.roguelike.angband/msg/61536640abd890fa

Andrew

[will_asher]

I looks like I should be editing Unangband instead of vanilla to be able to do more with the edit files. Last time I played Unangband it still had some nasty bugs, so I gave up on it for awhile. Maybe I'll download the most recent version and edit that instead.

About other things I'd like to be able to change in the txt files, I didn't have anything complicated in mind. Just things like being able to make new slays for new types of monsters I'm adding, and make certain monsters of different types appear together. (I wanted to add Haradrim and make them always appear with mumaks). And make new vulnerabilities, currently, HURT_LITE, and HURT_ROCK are the only ones. Is there a way to make monsters more vulnerable to certain elements or types of weapons?
With Unangband being able to edit spells, I'd make new summon spells for particular types of monsters which don't have a spell to summon them. If I could, I'd also had monster spells like curse (opposite of scroll of blessing) and hallucenate.

Whatever I just can't do without coding is okay, I'd just want to know how much I am able to do without coding.

Also noticed the lurker above looks exactly like the floor. I never noticed that before because when you have graphics turned on, it has a picture for the lurker above. Why does it have a picture for it when you're not supposed to be able to see it?

Also again, there's a few flags in the monster txt file I was wondering what they do:
F:POWERFUL
F:ESCORTS (there's an ESCORT flag, so why an ESCORTS flag?)
F:STUPID

Those were the only three I wasn't able to figure out what they do.

[andrewdoull]

I looks like I should be editing Unangband instead of vanilla to be able to do more with the edit files. Last time I played Unangband it still had some nasty bugs, so I gave up on it for awhile. Maybe I'll download the most recent version and edit that instead.

I suggest you wait for a more stable version. I've been spending a lot of time on the existing work in progress version and should be moving to beta in the next month or so.

About other things I'd like to be able to change in the txt files, I didn't have anything complicated in mind. Just things like being able to make new slays for new types of monsters I'm adding, and make certain monsters of different types appear together. (I wanted to add Haradrim and make them always appear with mumaks). And make new vulnerabilities, currently, HURT_LITE, and HURT_ROCK are the only ones. Is there a way to make monsters more vulnerable to certain elements or types of weapons?

All of the requests you are making are unlikely to be editable in monster files. I could see a number of ways of making some of them, but basically, whenever you add a new flag, you need to add code.

With Unangband being able to edit spells, I'd make new summon spells for particular types of monsters which don't have a spell to summon them. If I could, I'd also had monster spells like curse (opposite of scroll of blessing) and hallucenate.

Unangband already has curse and hallucinate spells

At the moment, in Unangband, you can only define up to 4 ranged spells for monsters, and these take the place of existing monster blows. Unfortunately, these can only really be attack spells e.g. fireball etc. I'm have a plan for monster 'spellbooks' but these won't be implemented for a while.

You could easily add scrolls/staffs of summoning various types of monsters.

Whatever I just can't do without coding is okay, I'd just want to know how much I am able to do without coding.

Also noticed the lurker above looks exactly like the floor. I never noticed that before because when you have graphics turned on, it has a picture for the lurker above. Why does it have a picture for it when you're not supposed to be able to see it?

Also again, there's a few flags in the monster txt file I was wondering what they do:
F:POWERFUL
F:ESCORTS (there's an ESCORT flag, so why an ESCORTS flag?)
F:STUPID

Powerful monsters have more poweful breath weapons, and higher damage caps on their breath weapons, in a lot of variants. Vanilla - I'm not 100% on, but its breath weapon related.

Escorts forces all escort monsters to have the FRIENDS flag, even if only some would normally not. (e.g. for an orc unique with ESCORTS, they'll have orc shamans appearing in a group as well).

Stupid means the monster doesn't make intelligent decisions about what spells to cast. Again, this has much more impact on variants, than in vanilla.

Those were the only three I wasn't able to figure out what they do.

I highly recommend you download the Angband source code and start reading. Its very easy to understand, even if you don't intend to change anything. I wouldn't make the same recommendation about Unangband at the moment.

Learn to use tools like grep to search files. Look at defines.h which sets up all the flag definitions. I highly recommend it.

Andrew

[will_asher]

more flag questions

I looked at the defines.h file like you suggested and I found some monster and monster spell flags that are unused but might be useful:

DROP_USEFUL (don't know what this does)
FRIEND (start out in pairs)
HURT_FIRE (hurt extra by fire)
HURT_COLD (hurt extra by cold)
RES_NETH
NO_STUN (can't be stunned, I didn't think monsters could be stunned anyway)

and these monster spells: BR_MANA | BA_MANA | BA_DARK | BO_POIS

Would these work if I used them in monster.txt? If so, do you know what the DROP_USEFUL and NO_STUN flags do? (I'm assuming the NO_STUN does nothing in the current version) I would specifically like to use the HURT_FIRE and HURT_COLD ones if they'd work.

I didn't find anything else in the define.h file that I would know how to do anything with.

thanks

Will

[andrewdoull]

I looked at the defines.h file like you suggested and I found some monster and monster spell flags that are unused but might be useful:

DROP_USEFUL (don't know what this does)
FRIEND (start out in pairs)
HURT_FIRE (hurt extra by fire)
HURT_COLD (hurt extra by cold)

None of the above have been implemented in code, so they won't work. They're just ideas sketched in by one or other maintainer.

RES_NETH
NO_STUN (can't be stunned, I didn't think monsters could be stunned anyway)

and these monster spells: BR_MANA | BA_MANA | BA_DARK | BO_POIS

I don't think BR_MANA has been implemented (I could be wrong), but these other flags have. Yes, monsters can be stunned... its quite powerful.

Would these work if I used them in monster.txt? If so, do you know what the DROP_USEFUL and NO_STUN flags do? (I'm assuming the NO_STUN does nothing in the current version) I would specifically like to use the HURT_FIRE and HURT_COLD ones if they'd work.

I didn't find anything else in the define.h file that I would know how to do anything with.

thanks

Will

Andrew

[Psi]

Yes, monsters can be stunned... its quite powerful.

Indeed, in FA I kept Morgoth stunned for almost the entirety of the final battle. Made life a *lot* easier.

[pav]

Ey and NPP have elemental vulnerabilities for monsters (HURT flags). It's quite nice that you can damage ice elemental more with fire wands...