Slings and their effectiveness

[Timo Pietilä]

Just finished watching Lindybeige videos about slings. Turns out those things are actually quite effective. While buckland slings are a bit too powerful, I do think slings should be a bit more "endgame" weapons than they are now. Not necessarily artifact-quality (couple of strings doesn't really an artifact make), but better than they are now.

Maybe give slings x3 but with -10 accuracy penalty: they are not as accurate as bows or xbows.

[Derakon]

Maybe give slings x3 but with -10 accuracy penalty: they are not as accurate as bows or xbows.

I like this idea, except for the fact that our to-hit mechanism is so hopelessly opaque, so it's hard to know how much impact -10 has really. In fact I suspect that a -10 penalty would probably render slings totally useless in the early game, while being basically irrelevant from the midgame onwards.

[Carnivean]

I proposed this kind of thing a few months ago, yet got told that realism was unwanted.

Slings are common weapons because they are amazingly cheap and simple, with ammo literally lying on the ground. This makes them ideal starting weapons from a gameplay and realism perspective.

Also Lindybiege, while seemingly quite knowledgeable in a few areas, has some gaping holes that he seems unaware of. Also he's a bit of a conspiracy nut.

[krazyhades]

Not necessarily artifact-quality (couple of strings doesn't really an artifact make)

I wouldn't mind artifact slings. It's not necessarily just the physical properties of the item that make it an artifact in Tolkein/Angband, but the power of its legacy, including famous wielders and the heroic deeds accomplished with it. For a non-Tolkein example, the Sling of David was wielded by a destined king to slay a titanic foe, making it in my mind artifact material despite being, in purely physical terms, a couple of strings.

[quarague]

Can't we make slings more powerful in the early game by upgrading pebbles from 1d2 to say 3d2 or something like that? Iron shots would have to be upgrade somewhat as well, but maybe mostly through being less likely to break. This would make a (+0,+0) sling with (+0) pebbles stronger than most non magic melee weapons but once the player gets to magic and ego weapons, slings are not that good anymore, even if also magic/ ego with magic/ego ammo (unless it's a good buckland of course).

[Estie]

Slings should be more effective...but not as effective as they are currently (Buckland)....*scratches head*. I think slings are perfectly fine the way they are now :P
Dont forget, +2/+2 Buckland slings are very rare, you wont find one every game.

Edit: as for early game effectiveness, I really dont see a need. They are what 80% of my characters use early game anyway, simply because they (and shots) are so common early on. While a heavy xbow with bolts of fire does more damage, I dont have that yet, but my magic sling with pebbles of fire (+5,+5) does the job just fine.

[Timo Pietilä]

Slings should be more effective...but not as effective as they are currently (Buckland)....*scratches head*. I think slings are perfectly fine the way they are now :P
Dont forget, +2/+2 Buckland slings are very rare, you wont find one every game.

Problem with that as I see it is that there is a huge jump from sling to buckland sling. Normal sling is just crap compared to any other ego launcher, buckland can be better than anything else and at minimum about equal to extra shot longbow (bit worse ammo, +DEX).

Hm. in 4.x extra shot and extra might is restricted to bows it seems. I have vague memory of seeing extra shot H and LXbows in older versions. Has this changed or do I just member something that didn't actually happen?

Anyway, slings have only one ego-type: buckland.

[PowerWyrm]

Problem with that as I see it is that there is a huge jump from sling to buckland sling. Normal sling is just crap compared to any other ego launcher, buckland can be better than anything else and at minimum about equal to extra shot longbow (bit worse ammo, +DEX).

Hm. in 4.x extra shot and extra might is restricted to bows it seems. I have vague memory of seeing extra shot H and LXbows in older versions. Has this changed or do I just member something that didn't actually happen?

Anyway, slings have only one ego-type: buckland.

Err... you can get slings/bows/xbows of Accuracy/Power/Extra Might/Extra Shots in the latest version. The only restrictions are for Lothlórien (bow), Haradrim (xbow) and Buckland (sling).

[Timo Pietilä]

Err... you can get slings/bows/xbows of Accuracy/Power/Extra Might/Extra Shots in the latest version. The only restrictions are for Lothlórien (bow), Haradrim (xbow) and Buckland (sling).

My bad, I just read "type:bow" and assumed that that means bow.

After your post I took a second look and noticed that buckland is "item:bow:Sling"

So yes, my memory is correct, my eyes need fixing.

[bio_hazard]

How about an ego sling that has a good chance to stun, and gives rStun?

[Pete Mack]

That's an artifact sling, and it's a little out of game character for the Pits of Angband.
The Sling of David (x4) (+17,+20)<+1,+2>
It increases your shooting power by 2
It increases your shooting speed by 1
It increases your dexterity and intelligence by 1.
It protects you from stunning.

Your current ammo will stun your foes with probability 10%.

How about an ego sling that has a good chance to stun, and gives rStun?

[Derakon]

How about an ego sling that has a good chance to stun, and gives rStun?

Monster stunning is a very powerful effect, as it robs the monster of turns outright. Having a sling that let you beat on uniques unopposed would probably be overpowered, so the stun chance would have to be small, which in turn makes it less interesting.

The general idea of a weapon that's likely to put debuffs on the enemy is interesting, though our selection of debuffs really needs an overhaul (as I've discussed in the past).

[Estie]

In tome2, haftedmasters could get a chance to stun with every blow; I tried it once, found out that it did basically nothing to deep monsters and moved on.

The mage spell from book 6 (forget the name) feels about right regarding stunning chance; however, the fact that it also destroys potions means I hardly ever use it.

As usual, everything that gives a new effect in play is either useless (ring of the dog) or too powerfull (ring of reckless attack). Making an interesting new option that isnt better than the already existing ones is impossible.

[Derakon]

As usual, everything that gives a new effect in play is either useless (ring of the dog) or too powerfull (ring of reckless attack). Making an interesting new option that isnt better than the already existing ones is impossible.

Or at least very hard, yes. It's an unfortunate side-effect of how swingy and simple Angband combat is. In order for some special effect to be a better option than just hitting the enemy with the biggest attack you have, it has to have a fairly significant impact, but then it's very easy for that impact to be too large, rendering the effect overpowering. Fixing this and giving us more room to "play" would almost certainly require a substantial overhaul of how combat works exactly -- I mean, look at Sil.

[Timo Pietilä]

Monster stunning is a very powerful effect, as it robs the monster of turns outright.

Maybe monster stun should at first do lesser effects like causing them to lose ability to cast spells and miss you in melee more often before it does KO just like player stun does. Maybe slow them down or something like that for turn or two (if successful).