Sling vs Bow vs Crossbow

[PowerWyrm]

I'm in the process of rebalancing archers in PWMAngband, so I was looking at which of the three shooters was the most powerful in normal Angband in the end. Looking at ego launchers, we have: for slings, Buckland at x4 with 2 extra shots; for bows, Lothlorien at x5 or Extra Shots at x3 with 1 extra shot; for crossbows, Extra Might at x5 or Haradrim/Extra Shots at x4 with 1 extra shot.

Here's the table with might * shots vs base shots for each launcher:

Base shots					1	2	3

Sling of Buckland				12	16	20

Long Bow of Lothlorien				5	10	15
Long Bow of Extra Shots				6	9	12

Heavy Crossbow of Extra Might			5	10	15
Light/Heavy Crossbow of Haradrim/Extra Shots	8	12	16

Basically the Sling of Buckland is better for normal characters and the Long Bow of Lothlorien is better for rangers if considering only the raw power of each shooter. After that, I don't know how ammo would affect this. Or randarts.

[PowerWyrm]

Here's damage output vs normal and evil with the following:

Class							Normal	Ranger

Sling of Buckland (x4) (+15, +15) <+5, +2>		440/660	--
+ Mithril Shot of Slay Evil (2d4) (+15, +15)

Long Bow of Lothlorien (x5) (+15, +15) <+5, +2>		209/293	627/877
+ Seeker Arrow of Slay Evil (4d4) (+15, +15)

Light Crossbow of the Haradrim (x4) (+15, +15) <+1>	351/526	--
+ Seeker Bolt of Slay Evil (4d5) (+15, +15)

[Estie]

Uh, the Lothlorien value seems too high; are you sure you havent added an extra shot in there ?
Also, heavy xbow of Haradrim doesnt exist; someone foolishly removed them long ago, and in a hacky way I suspect because greater vaults have tons of magical heavy xbows as they shouldnt.

Edit: nm, I missed the "ranger" over the entry.

[PowerWyrm]

Also, heavy xbow of Haradrim doesnt exist;

That's why I've used Light Crossbow of the Haradrim for damage calculation. Using Heavy Crossbow of Extra Shots would yield the same result (both have x4 might +1 ES). For normal characters, Long Bow of Extra Shots would give better output, but still the bow is the weakest shooter for non rangers, and by far.

[Gram]

It'd be interesting to see where artifact bows fit in the damage output table. Bard and Belthronding at > (+15,+15) have some advantage over long bows of Lothlorien and Extra Shots. I suppose Amrod and Amras would both equal bows of Extra Shots for rangers.

For non-rangers all the artifacts are apparently stat sticks rather than elite shooters, which seems unfortunate, but it'd be interesting to quantify the tradeoffs.

Also, the odds of finding not only a +2 power, +2 shots sling of Buckland but also plenty of slay evil mithril shots are probably much lower than the odds of getting other good shooters and ammo, right?

[Estie]

That's why I've used Light Crossbow of the Haradrim for damage calculation. Using Heavy Crossbow of Extra Shots would yield the same result (both have x4 might +1 ES). For normal characters, Long Bow of Extra Shots would give better output, but still the bow is the weakest shooter for non rangers, and by far.

It is true that bow does the least damage; nontheless, I find myself using it most of the time. A Lothlorien offers ESP and up to 5 dex, effectively increasing melee damage. Half-trolls especially love that dex.

[TJS]

How do Sling of Bucklands do so much damage? They have a x4 multiplier which is equal or less than for the bow or crossbow listed above and the ammo does less damage too.

[Gram]

A Sling of Buckland gets pluses to both power and shots. If it has +2 to both, that's a x4 shooter shooting 3x.

[Timo Pietilä]

It is true that bow does the least damage; nontheless, I find myself using it most of the time. A Lothlorien offers ESP and up to 5 dex, effectively increasing melee damage. Half-trolls especially love that dex.

Lothlorien also is much more common than Buckland and getting one with very high to_dam is more probable than finding equal Buckland. Though getting one with ESP is rare.

I'm not sure if Buckland should be sling though. In Tolkien works hobbits don't use slings if they have bows. A short bow of Buckland with only one extra shot and might would be more appropriate. Kind of Amrod/Amros area of power.

[Gram]

My character found a heavy crossbow of extra shots early, found Amrod a bit ago, and just found Belthronding. So I wanted to revisit this question; here's a comparison with a tricked-out L50 rogue, with all the non-artifact bows at +15 damage. I didn't get slay evil ammo; this is with Wounding +23 ammo.

Bow		Damage
Cubragol	157
Amrod		205
Lothlorien	257
Bard		278
Amras		308
Umbar		340
Belthronding	353
Haradrim/HCXS	428
Buckland	552

So for non-rangers this boils down to the question of how much missile damage you're willing to give up in order to wear a stat stick. It's possible to find the non-artifact bows with better than +15 damage, further skewing this in favor of the heavy crossbow of extra shots, Haradrim, and Buckland.

Note Cubragol gets double that against foes not resistant to fire- I figured since the brand won't make a difference for many other kinds of ammo I'd stick to quoting the base damage.

[Pete Mack]

This is correct. It is correct for rangers too: If you find a monster +MIGHT longbow, it will dominate nearly everything except Bard. That said, BRAND_FIRE kills pretty much everything, so going with cubragol is almost always a reasonable choice for anyone who is either short on speed or has an epic-grade melee weapon.

My character found a heavy crossbow of extra shots early, found Amrod a bit ago, and just found Belthronding. So I wanted to revisit this question; here's a comparison with a tricked-out L50 rogue, with all the non-artifact bows at +15 damage. I didn't get slay evil ammo; this is with Wounding +23 ammo.

Bow		Damage
Cubragol		157
Amrod		205
Lothlorien	257
Bard		278
Amras		308
Umbar		340
Belthronding	353
Haradrim/HCXS	428
Buckland	552

So for non-rangers this boils down to the question of how much missile damage you're willing to give up in order to wear a stat stick. It's possible to find the non-artifact bows with better than +15 damage, further skewing this in favor of the heavy crossbow of extra shots, Haradrim, and Buckland.

Note Cubragol gets double that against foes not resistant to fire- I figured since the brand won't make a difference for many other kinds of ammo I'd stick to quoting the base damage.

[Gram]

Yeah, I imagine the brand is amazing if you find it early on (of course the speed even more so). But later on, by the time one is actually likely to have to choose between some of these, branded or slay ammo is not extremely rare any more, and everybody except warriors has access to the Elemental Brand spell.

I'm really not sure I feel good about dropping any of the three my rogue has. I've been wearing Amrod for the +STR, +CON, and regen, and toting the heavy crossbow around as a swap for when I need more serious missile damage. But carrying bolts in addition to arrows, along with the heavy crossbow, has seemed kinda ridiculous, especially since I have the Glaive of Pain and thus focus on melee. I guess that now that I have Belthronding I should carry that as the swap, get rid of all my bolts, and make space to leave the HCXS at home. Later, if I max out STR and CON some other way, I may want to go back to the crossbow.

[Pete Mack]

Yes. With Glaive, you can ignore your shooter. Belthronding is the right swap (as much for disenchantment as for shooting power.)

Yeah, I imagine the brand is amazing if you find it early on (of course the speed even more so). But later on, by the time one is actually likely to have to choose between some of these, branded or slay ammo is not extremely rare any more, and everybody except warriors has access to the Elemental Brand spell.

I'm really not sure I feel good about dropping any of the three my rogue has. I've been wearing Amrod for the +STR, +CON, and regen, and toting the heavy crossbow around as a swap for when I need more serious missile damage. But carrying bolts in addition to arrows, along with the heavy crossbow, has seemed kinda ridiculous, especially since I have the Glaive of Pain and thus focus on melee. I guess that now that I have Belthronding I should carry that as the swap, get rid of all my bolts, and make space to leave the HCXS at home. Later, if I max out STR and CON some other way, I may want to go back to the crossbow.

[quarague]

So looking at these numbers and the unique ranged weapons, two suggestions:
- there currently is no unique sling, maybe something relatively low level that drops early would fit best
- it would be nice if one of the unique xbows would be a pure massive damage dealer instead of a stat stick, kind of like the glaive of pain, giving players the choice between a stat stick or dealing lots of ranged damage