Shields/Hand & a half weapons in Vanilla

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  • wobbly
    Prophet
    • May 2012
    • 2631

    Shields/Hand & a half weapons in Vanilla

    I'm more used to Sil/Poscheng then vanilla & in both these variants using a shield with a heavy weapon is a trade off, you lose damage output in order to gain protection. For me this leads to interesting trade-offs/choices.

    My own suggestion is a higher effective strength for multiple blows if not using a shield. This way you'd probably still end up with a shield in the endgame but may pass on it earlier on. What do others think? Also makes heavy weapons a little more competitive early for warriors.
  • Estie
    Veteran
    • Apr 2008
    • 2347

    #2
    I dont know Sil nor Poscheng well, but in the games I know, that tradeoff is never interesting, always favouring the shield. For example, in tome2 or diablo 1+2.

    There is a variant that assumes the shield is carried on the back when wielding a 2handed weapon, giving magic properties of shield but not the AC. While that is realistic and interesting, if implemented in current vanilla, it would amount to basically no change at all.

    If there really is to be an an attempt to incorporate full 2handed weapon usage, the obvious thing to do is to rework the base damage of weapons. Damage bonus from str (ala d&d) or the above suggested improved attack speed might be done in addition, but shouldnt be the only difference, as that would distort the damages.

    Interestingly, wobbly implies that for the endgame, the shield should remain the favourable option, meaning that there isnt going to be a real "interesting choice" after all

    Comment

    • Derakon
      Prophet
      • Dec 2009
      • 9022

      #3
      Changes that affect only the early or midgame can still be interesting, even if characters ultimately have to revert to using a shield for the late game because of the additional magical bonuses.

      Basically what we're talking about here, though, is having the option to replace the shield slot with a Ring of Strength that only applies when calculating weapon damage/blows. I could see that being a worthwhile tradeoff, but only for characters that already have a strong enough early/mid game that they don't really need the help. I guess the question then becomes whether the additional complexity in the code and UI is worth the additional immersiveness of being able to two-hand a two-handed sword.

      Comment

      • wobbly
        Prophet
        • May 2012
        • 2631

        #4
        Originally posted by Estie
        Interestingly, wobbly implies that for the endgame, the shield should remain the favourable option, meaning that there isnt going to be a real "interesting choice" after all
        More a case of keeping a similar balance then me thinking a shield should be ideal for the finish. Also I have an easier time picturing a 2-hander/polearm & shield on a character with god-like str.

        Originally posted by Derakon
        I could see that being a worthwhile tradeoff, but only for characters that already have a strong enough early/mid game that they don't really need the help.
        What about the priest? It spends part of the early game forced to melee with a heavy weapon. I'd trade AC for better damage output until I found a shield of resistance.

        Anyway, just a random idea.

        Comment

        • Estie
          Veteran
          • Apr 2008
          • 2347

          #5
          Yes, but if you bother to go that route, why not go all the way ?

          The one time this was done right was in WoW, when 2handed weapons got double the pool of properties. Someone had understood that shield is primarily another stat slot and if 2handed is to be viable, you cant remove a slot worth of properties.
          Of course they messed up again soon after when some genius came up with "titan grip", a skill that allowed warriors to dualwield 2handed weapons .... needless to say, quadruple stat pool caused them all kinds of problems in the next expansion when they had to balance increased stat pools.

          Comment

          • quarague
            Swordsman
            • Jun 2012
            • 261

            #6
            I was thinking why do you want to start with the full complexity of 1.5-handed weapons? Maybe we can just start by making some weapons 2-handed, meaning wearing this base type does not allow you to wear a shield. Once this is reasonably well balanced, we can think of whether some characters should be able to wield some 2-handed weapons in 1 hand.
            Note that this would probably require some major weapon rebalancing especially in the early game. As is, a HT warrior is best served with a tiny dagger in the first half of the game, which should clearly be a 1-handed weapon. Just declaring that the heavy clubs nobody is using anyway get the additional disadvantage of being 2-handed would be somewhat pointless.

            Comment

            • Raccoon
              Scout
              • Oct 2015
              • 38

              #7
              I would say that the best way to balance two handed weapons, if you're going to allow them to be wielded with two hands, is such:

              *It prevents use of a shield (obviously)
              *It counts as half the weight for purposes of calculating your blows/round.

              Then you have the trade-off of deciding whether you want the extra egos of the shield (which are most likely to be resistances) or the extra attacks with the sword's high hit dice and presumably strong offensive egos.

              If that's not enough to compensate for the lack of the shield, two-handed weapons could also have more ego slots, preferably all offensive egos to stick with the theme that a two handed weapon is a trade-off of protection for killing power. Edit: or just increase the damage dice on them, since the dice on large weapons in this game is *pathetic*. It's almost certainly not worth the trade-off in losing all those blows per round for a 30 pound hammer unless and until you've capped your str/dex/extra attacks.

              Comment

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