Player knowledge

[krugar]

Thanks for the clarification. I can now better understand the rationale. I'll be very willing to add my number to those interested in testing this. In particular because I'm still a bit doubtful of its advantages and the negative impact this may have on the early and mid game.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Rune-based ID sounds interesting. It's not exactly interesting to sort through a huge pile of equipment after clearing a vault/pit near the end of the dungeon, only to find that it's all stuff like armor of resistance or weapons of slay yeek that you've squelched 20-some levels ago.

The main concern I have with it would be identifying activations. Most of those aren't too much of a problem to just waste one, but the effects like emergency, terror, and wonder could potentially lead to some pretty stupid deaths. I'd like to keep ID scrolls around for addressing that, and changing them to being available only as a dungeon drop (and BM purchase) sounds like it might be a fair way of handling it.

The One Ring activation would be a real @#$% to learn by use!

[Bowman]

Rune-based ID sounds interesting. It's not exactly interesting to sort through a huge pile of equipment after clearing a vault/pit near the end of the dungeon, only to find that it's all stuff like armor of resistance or weapons of slay yeek that you've squelched 20-some levels ago.

The main concern I have with it would be identifying activations. Most of those aren't too much of a problem to just waste one, but the effects like emergency, terror, and wonder could potentially lead to some pretty stupid deaths. I'd like to keep ID scrolls around for addressing that, and changing them to being available only as a dungeon drop (and BM purchase) sounds like it might be a fair way of handling it.

[Timo Pietilä]

Aren't there a fair few monsters with the slow spell?

Potion of sleep should not work if you have FA IIRC.

[wobbly]

Take an example like free action, the player suspects one of his items gives free action, but trying it out on a monster with paralyse is still quite dangerous in case none of the items gives free action.

Aren't there a fair few monsters with the slow spell?

[Estie]

I can see magical id being made rare, scrolls that appear with the same frequency as, for example, deep descent, removal of staves, moving the spell higher up in the books. It is not necessary that each and every rune be found out by trial and error, just the majority.
This can become similar to the situation with flavour scrolls/potions now: I id-by-use up to a certain point, with small risks and the occasional surprise, but at some point I switch to id-by-magic. So if any rune turns out to be pesky and grindy to id, thats the one you want to use one of your few scrolls on.

[Timo Pietilä]

What are the in-world reasons for this?

Goal is to get rid of all (if possible) "push this button to make it go away" things. Like detect traps every time you go past trap detection border is just repetitive action which makes game more dull. Real solution would be to get rid of detect traps and make traps more meaningful and not just potentially lethal obstacles in random places.

ID is similar thing. You get unknown item, you "press this button" and voila, it has ID. If the ID is eventually completely automatic it makes game deep down much faster. Other solution to that is to get rid of ID and just simply never have non-id items. Even that would be better than do the ID exercise every time you have pile of new items.

[Rowan]

At first I thought the Rune-based system was just arbitrary, for flavor, or to make the game more "interesting" for 20+year players. But the eventual explanation made sense.

This does lead to the problem of the current ID system making runes far too easy to recognize. Sure. But taking away all ID except for mages just seems like an arbitrary quick-fix for the problem. What are the in-world reasons for this? As it is, a "Holy Insights" book is not easy to come by. Why shouldn't ID remain for priests?

Another problem comes to mind: if we have Scrolls of Identify Rune that work on a single rune, how does the scroll know which rune @ can't read in stead of identifying "stealth" for the 8th time? I guess maybe the player copies the unknown rune onto the scroll... eh maybe I'm overthinking it.

Another in-world problem: if Angband now exists in a world where runes give magical properties, SOMEONE would have gone through and made Rune-Dictionaries. Maybe that's a new type of book that could be sold, or if that's too easy, a dungeon book to discover? "Sophia's Handbook of Elemental Runes," "Rowan's Guide to Attribute Boosts" (*snicker*)

[Timo Pietilä]

I'm also not above abandoning an approach completely if it doesn't work.

Problem of ID isn't that that bad if we add some low-risk capability to test the item without actually using it. Like drinking potion of confusion while wearing item that gives you pConf immediately identifies the rune in it as pConf.

That brings back "bad" consumables.

The biggest problem I see is early game single-slay weapons. If you find weapon of slay troll you have no means to ID it before you actually meet trolls.

Maybe store services? Pay the shopkeeper to ID item to you.

In olden days there were potions of self knowledge. Maybe we need to add them back.

[Estie]

But if that is the case, what is the motivation behind all this? Why change something just to see what happens? And then spend the next code iterations tweeking it for who knows how long. In the meantime introducing a whole new mechanic that is bound to introduce new bugs and increase code maintenance time.

I'm not dead set against change, but I honestly don't see the gameplay benefit of any of this. Other methods, like a drastic reduction of magic identify sources (admittedly staffs of identify are the worst) could be implemented in just one version of the game and would achieve a similar effect in order to promote, but not force entirely, identification by experimentation.

I guess my argument is why remove entirely magical identification means? This is what I don't understand.

There are 2 types of items with unknown properties: flavour ones like potions and staves and others like mail of elvenkind. The problem is with identifying the "others". Early on, identifying anything is an exciting process, but lategame, when you start clearing out GVs, it becomes tedious and stale to identify every single piece of armour which you find by the hundreds.

So the idea is to turn the "other" type of items into flavour, too, so that by midgame you have identified most of the types and the average chainmail of elvenkind you find lategame doesnt require any more processing, just like the potion of speed that you see on the floor and know. Thats what runebased id sets out to achieve.

[Carnivean]

I guess my argument is why remove entirely magical identification means? This is what I don't understand.

There are probably 800 threads on this.

[Derakon]

I guess my argument is why remove entirely magical identification means? This is what I don't understand.

The overarching goal is to remove the tedium from the identification process, where you find a bunch of unidentified items and then you have to figure out what they all do. Ideally we would also not lose the concept of mysterious items whose purpose you have to figure out, which is why we aren't just making all equipment items identified from the start (though this would be trivial to implement).

"Rune-based ID" as a concept has been bandied about for years now. Plenty of people think it'd be worth trying out. However, it loses meaning if players can trivially identify all the runes -- that'd mean players would just "cast identify" in whatever appropriate manner (spell, scroll, etc.) until they've identified every rune and then ignore identification from then on. Basically they completely ignore the new mechanic. So a corollary to rune-based ID is greatly restricting magical sources of identification.

As has been said before in this thread, there will doubtless be many bugs, undesirable behaviors, etc. that will need to be tweaked. But if the devs are willing to try it and the players are willing to playtest it, then I see no reason why it shouldn't proceed. Obviously if it can't be made to work then it won't end up in an official release.

As a side note, though: we may want to consider retaining a reasonably common (and possibly castable) "Flavor Identify" ability for IDing potions and scrolls. While I'm not aware of any seriously detrimental items out there where ID by use would be problematic, I'd sure hate to ID-by-use a Teleport Level scroll on a vault level, or Potion of Life pretty much period. There's still a significant period in the early game where characters will be IDing scrolls and potions by use, and I think staves/wands/rods are all pretty safe to ID by use (mm, maybe not Staves of Destruction...). Well, something to think about anyway.

Maybe we just have scrolls of Identify Potion, Identify Scroll, Identify Rune, etc. and they have variable rarity depending on how important we think it is that the player be forced to ID-by-use the relevant item type.

[krugar]

Yeah, let's just implement it and see what happens.

But if that is the case, what is the motivation behind all this? Why change something just to see what happens? And then spend the next code iterations tweeking it for who knows how long. In the meantime introducing a whole new mechanic that is bound to introduce new bugs and increase code maintenance time.

I'm not dead set against change, but I honestly don't see the gameplay benefit of any of this. Other methods, like a drastic reduction of magic identify sources (admittedly staffs of identify are the worst) could be implemented in just one version of the game and would achieve a similar effect in order to promote, but not force entirely, identification by experimentation.

I guess my argument is why remove entirely magical identification means? This is what I don't understand.

[Estie]

Yeah, let's just implement it and see what happens.

(He says, knowing that he's not planning to lift a finger in the implementation phase...)

Thats a task for the coding slaves, whereas the brilliant minds keep monitoring the process through the forum

[Derakon]

You can throw out the runebased system without any "intended" methods for identifying each rune, and see what players come up with. If some runes turn out to be annoyingly hard to find out, new methods and ways can be devised by the designer, but I wouldnt make too many assumptions about how the gameplay is going to pan out. Its a big change.

Yeah, let's just implement it and see what happens.

(He says, knowing that he's not planning to lift a finger in the implementation phase...)