In with a chance to win after 25 years

[Stephen2]

Hi all, have been playing since Moria on and off, with never a chance of winning. I'm an expert of getting to dlvl 40, but have consistently died at that approx depth.

Now, finally, I've been able to alter my faulty playstyle with lots of forum reading (thank you), I've got a High Elf Mage who might win.

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=18303

But I'm really not sure what I'm doing at this depth - really need general advice on what I should be doing from now until Morgoth.

For example, I'm trolling about dlvl 85, but for no particular reason am I staying there.. I find it hard to take on any uniques that are native depth >65 or so, and my mana reserves feel really low? Should I be heading down to dlvl 98? Or staying here? Am I looking to gain levels, or equipment? Which equipment/stats are my goals from here?

Thanks very much for much the assistance

[Stephen2]

The Tarrasque breathes disenchatment.
You die.

Wouldn't worry about the advice Actually, bring it on anyway..

[jrodman]

I'm certainly no expert, but I'm curious how that happened.

Generally I wouldn't let the Tarrasque get line of sight on a puny mage. Line of Sight abuse is the core principle of how I play mages. Weak sauce, perhaps, but safe.

[Timo Pietilä]

The Tarrasque breathes disenchatment.
You die.

Wouldn't worry about the advice Actually, bring it on anyway..

Haradrim & Isildur & BoS +7 instead of Himring & Celegorm, & Thror. Lose one STR, rDark, rChaos, rNether but gain +4 speed, rSound and rNexus and better gain fighting stats.

That +4 speed is the important part. That puts you above +10 speed which hasted is over +20 which makes double-moves from very fast monsters impossible.

Also run away from Tarrasque

As general advice, dive a bit further, detect like crazy, leave level is it looks like it contains too many too bad monsters, prepare for fights, never get surrounded, be faster than your opponents.

[Bogatyr]

It's essential to build up monster memory over your games (so don't keep starting new characters previous to 4.x) so you know the maximum attack output of any particular monster, and avoid stepping into line of sight of those that can one-shot kill @. Rods of probing are not just for the current game, but all future ones as well. You're investing in a @-saving knowledge base.

Also, if you like mages, it may in fact be easier to play one of the faster leveling mage-friendly races. With faster leveling you get more powerful spells sooner. gnome is perhaps the best mage: the beginning game is really fast (choose 18/50 INT to start) with lots of SP and spells, and the end game is really fast (with Kelek's you can raid any vault almost risk-free quite easily). I don't think you can avoid the long slog through the middle game with any mage: you must be very, very picky of the fights you choose before you get CON up high enough to get out of one-shot territory.

With mages, remember to use devices! wands/rods are *powerful* in the hands of a mage, and gnomes have the highest magic device in the game, which multiplies the damage output of wands/rods.

Also, unsymmetric LoS (hockey stick) is your friend, use it. Dig hockey stick corridors, and pound on the baddies while they can't hit you back. Takes some preparation but as you found out, there's no glory to be found going toe to toe with such as the Tarrasque

[Ingwe Ingweron]

It's essential to build up monster memory over your games (so don't keep starting new characters previous to 4.x) so you know the maximum attack output of any particular monster, and avoid stepping into line of sight of those that can one-shot kill @. Rods of probing are not just for the current game, but all future ones as well. You're investing in a @-saving knowledge base.

Or, just copy monster.txt from the gamedata directory, rename it lore.txt, and put it in the user directory. This will give full monster memory. Having played for years and using rods of probing to gain knowledge of every single possible monster (including Father Christmas and his Elves ), I don't feel the slightest bit bad about doing this. What was that a Nightcrawler or Nightwalker breathed....? Plus, I like that I can then restart a @ from scratch and the item knowledge shows the unknown flavors, but not everything @ hasn't found yet, that way I can keep track of what has been found.

[Timo Pietilä]

It's essential to build up monster memory over your games (so don't keep starting new characters previous to 4.x) so you know the maximum attack output of any particular monster

That doesn't really matter. What matters is to learn how those damage capabilities form. A very large monster can breath a lot of damage. Basic four and poison can kill you without resist. No high element damage more than 550 with breath. Spell damages depend of monster native depth. Stunning can KO you. Being slower than your opponent can kill you. Having low HP can kill you.

What you need against unknown monster is to get the first shot in in safe position and watch what it did to monster. A knights move at the corridor is enough. Keep a big HP safety marginal until you have learned what it can do. If it stuns you heal immediately. Never ever be slower than what you are facing. Never get surrounded by unknowns.

Of course knowing that something can't hurt you is useful so that you don't need to be paranoid around absolutely everything.

Speed, HP, fail-proof escapes and healing. When you have those you can survive unknowns quite easily if you play it carefully.

[debo]

What a disenchanting way to lose.

[Stephen2]

What a disenchanting way to lose.

Hahaha +1 for you.

Thanks team, and for those interested, dying to Tarrasque happened for the exact reason I could never get past ~dlvl 40 before...

Not knowing what to do at a particular stage of the game/dungeon level (what is my goal here?) coupled with growing strength, without actual knowledge (what does Tarrasque do?) meaning stupidly trying to take on the whole level.

Truth as I've learned is to keep diving, and always assume you will die!

I'm gonna try Gnome mage now, thanks to above advice

[Timo Pietilä]

I'm gonna try Gnome mage now, thanks to above advice

I would suggest something more robust, like Dwarf Rogue. While Dwarf has bad stealth combination of rogue stealth and detections and Dwarf CON - bonus & higher HP dice makes that pretty decent combo for learning the game. Play it like warrior with utility spells and you should be OK.

Another hint: when you get probing, use it at knights move positions to learn what monster can do without being in LoS of the monster.

[Bogatyr]

That doesn't really matter. What matters is to learn how those damage capabilities form. A very large monster can breath a lot of damage. Basic four and poison can kill you without resist. No high element damage more than 550 with breath. Spell damages depend of monster native depth. Stunning can KO you. Being slower than your opponent can kill you. Having low HP can kill you.

What you need against unknown monster is to get the first shot in in safe position and watch what it did to monster. A knights move at the corridor is enough. Keep a big HP safety marginal until you have learned what it can do. If it stuns you heal immediately. Never ever be slower than what you are facing. Never get surrounded by unknowns.

Of course knowing that something can't hurt you is useful so that you don't need to be paranoid around absolutely everything.

Speed, HP, fail-proof escapes and healing. When you have those you can survive unknowns quite easily if you play it carefully.

It quite matters in that one must have a basically winning character (able to take a max hit from any monster in the game and survive) already before one can safely do such experimentation. It can also be very expensive in the limited # of high-quality escape consumables once you find out that you need to get away from something that turns out to be more than you can handle.
Also note there are a few monsters that have attacks greater than any @'s possible max hit points (even HT warrior). While they may be predictable in some cases (Wyrms), they may not in others (Huan, greater demons).

I will agree that Rogue is a good recommendation for learning the game: utility magic for the fun factor, high stealth, good fighter. Use that stealth to build up monster memory, or cheat like previously recommended (copying monster.txt to lore.txt). I prefer to build up monster memory by playing the same character over and over again. 4.x fixes this in that monster memory is per player, not per @.

The thing about rod of probing is that it does not instantly give max damage numbers. You must sustain some # of attacks before those get filled in. That's where monster memory is important. And that's why you should always probe opponents, to get that info filled in.

gnome mage is a bit of an "advanced" combo. They're awesome mages, but have low HP for most of the game.

[Timo Pietilä]

It quite matters in that one must have a basically winning character (able to take a max hit from any monster in the game and survive) already before one can safely do such experimentation.

Not really. You do need to match or have higher than monster speed though. Knights move experiments require that monster does at least one movement before it can do something to you. Pass-wall monsters are tough to figure out safely, but there are only few that are insanely deadly.

Of course you need to have fail-proof escape handy in case it looks like it is tougher than what you expected it to be.

Player experience matters more than character experience in making educated guesses what monster might be able to do. Dragons have breath weapon. Zephyr hounds same. Undeads tend to use nether. Demons mostly fire, but also enough exceptions that you can't rely on that. Humanoid monsters are toughest to figure out.

There are just a few "gotcha" monsters out there. Once you learn those you are quite safe. Like monsters that hit to blind, confuse or paralyze. Protections are more important than resists (except for basic four and poison).

[Bogatyr]

Not really. You do need to match or have higher than monster speed though. Knights move experiments require that monster does at least one movement before it can do something to you. Pass-wall monsters are tough to figure out safely, but there are only few that are insanely deadly.

Of course you need to have fail-proof escape handy in case it looks like it is tougher than what you expected it to be.

Player experience matters more than character experience in making educated guesses what monster might be able to do. Dragons have breath weapon. Zephyr hounds same. Undeads tend to use nether. Demons mostly fire, but also enough exceptions that you can't rely on that. Humanoid monsters are toughest to figure out.

There are just a few "gotcha" monsters out there. Once you learn those you are quite safe. Like monsters that hit to blind, confuse or paralyze. Protections are more important than resists (except for basic four and poison).

Just how much can you figure out in a knight's move experiment about a monster without letting it attack you? One resist at most, and a very approximate idea of total hit points? Monster resists and attacks (both the elements used and the max damage) are much more important than total hit points IMO. Rods of probing seem like the only real bulk information gathering approach. I combine rod of probing at a knight's move with teleport other after it steps around the corner, seems the most efficient and safe way to learn as much as you can.