Mage armor encumberance

[PowerWyrm]

Am I the only one who thinks a mage wearing 65lbs of armor should lose more than 35 out of 350 mana?

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Am I the only one who thinks a mage wearing 65lbs of armor should lose more than 35 out of 350 mana?

I think mages have it hard enough, especially when playing as one of the diminutive races.

[debo]

Am I the only one who thinks a mage wearing 65lbs of armor should lose more than 35 out of 350 mana?

If we're going to make it worse, we should probably add some better light-armor artefacts, because the vast majority of them are really bad iirc. The zangbands and stuff added some more good ones.

[mushroom patch]

Am I the only one who thinks a mage wearing 65lbs of armor should lose more than 35 out of 350 mana?

No, man, one of my bros from college became a mage and I remember the time we made him wear a full plate suit of armor we stole from the Met for initiation and he was so fucked up he couldn't even say the alphabet in greek forget about magic spellx. I'd say he lost at least 65% of his magic points in that armor...

[Bimbul]

Adamantite plate armour of free action (+7 speed) FTW

[Derakon]

I don't really have a problem with the current SP penalties. They can be significant if you try to armor up early on, but by the time you're wearing 65 pounds of armor, you're well into the "way beyond superhuman" phase of the game where you're preparing to kill a god. It's not unreasonable (to the extent that reason even applies in these scenarios) for such characters to be able to still freely cast spells despite being walking tanks.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

I don't really have a problem with the current SP penalties. They can be significant if you try to armor up early on, but by the time you're wearing 65 pounds of armor, you're well into the "way beyond superhuman" phase of the game where you're preparing to kill a god. It's not unreasonable (to the extent that reason even applies in these scenarios) for such characters to be able to still freely cast spells despite being walking tanks.

"Exterminate! ...Exterminate! ...Exterminate!"

Wait, no, that's the Darleks in Dr. Who.

[quarague]

I think if we want to change something here, I would change the speed penalties from overencumbrance. In the beginning these are quite severe, a gnome mage constantly has to worry about what to carry with him, while a HT warrior does not. However, once you reach the point in the game where characters routinely have more than +10 speed, this effect practically disappears. Yes you still get a speed penalty but it doesn't really matter to have -2 speed because of overencumbrance if your base speed is +27. I think this penalty should at least scale with your speed, maybe even faster than your speed bonus. A high level mage should suffer some penalty for carrying around 3 full plate armours as swap items.

[mushroom patch]

Encumbrance is a funny case in angband where it seems like an important consideration early and has some impact on what you should carry and so forth, but then it goes away later when you have the speed and strength not to have to think about it anymore. The funny part is this: Why doesn't this make you question whether encumbrance is worth having in the game at all? It's not like you get your first speed ring or boots, some STR potions and suddenly feel this sense of loss that you no longer have to think about whether you want to carry an extra alt weapon or armor or a fifth staff of whatever.

The argument I would expect is that you've "overcome" the drudgery the game put on you from the start by getting those items, so you are rewarded by not having to worry about some trivial bookkeeping garbage. This is, of course, totally absurd because getting speed and getting STR have much more satisfying and important effects than making encumbrance irrelevant and any sense of accomplishment in increasing those stats derives primarily from those.

In conclusion, encumbrance is garbage and should be removed.

[Derakon]

The argument I would expect is that you've "overcome" the drudgery the game put on you from the start by getting those items, so you are rewarded by not having to worry about some trivial bookkeeping garbage. This is, of course, totally absurd because getting speed and getting STR have much more satisfying and important effects than making encumbrance irrelevant and any sense of accomplishment in increasing those stats derives primarily from those.

Wow, you do an awful job of characterizing people who don't agree with you.

Angband is, from one perspective, a game about gaining power, or put another way, a game about losing weakness (it's all relative, right?). How is losing a limitation on your carrying capacity not satisfying? And it's not "trivial bookkeeping garbage" -- in the early game you really do have significant limits on what you can carry, and this impacts how you play the game in a major way.

It's important that the early game play differently from the late game. If every part of the game feels the same, then there's no real sense of progression; you're just doing the same thing as you did at the start, only with bigger numbers. Stripping away "human" limitations as the character gains power is an important part of this. It's not just carrying capacity, but also having to work with a meager hitpoint and spellpoint pool, having only one or two blows/round, not being able to detect what's going on around you, being unable to see invisible monsters, etc. etc. etc. All of these eventually become irrelevant as the player gains in power; should we then strip them away because they're therefore somehow pointless?

[Carnivean]

If every part of the game feels the same, then there's no real sense of progression;

I'd add that no real sense of progression over 100 levels just makes the game feel like drudgery.

[bio_hazard]

I would agree with the previous two statements. It is an interesting question though- I wouldn't mind seeing a slightly higher mana penalty for mages and big armors and more useful/flavorful light armors for casters.

I also wouldn't mind seeing encumbrance be more interesting. I while ago I had suggested turning rings of feather fall into rings of buoyancy that reduced or removed the slowing effect of encumbrance. Maybe have encumbrance reduce stealth as well?

There are a lot of players who spend most of their time in the early/mid game, so just because something becomes irrelevant in the late game does not mean it is not an interesting part of the game for a lot of people.

[mushroom patch]

Wow, you do an awful job of characterizing people who don't agree with you.

Well, I expected a more thoughtful response, but in this case it turns out you're right.

Angband is, from one perspective, a game about gaining power, or put another way, a game about losing weakness (it's all relative, right?). How is losing a limitation on your carrying capacity not satisfying? And it's not "trivial bookkeeping garbage" -- in the early game you really do have significant limits on what you can carry, and this impacts how you play the game in a major way.

The only reason to carry so much stuff you hit encumbrance limits is if you're planning to sell stuff. I explain what's not satisfying about "losing weakness" (lol) in the previous post.

It's important that the early game play differently from the late game. If every part of the game feels the same, then there's no real sense of progression; you're just doing the same thing as you did at the start, only with bigger numbers. Stripping away "human" limitations as the character gains power is an important part of this. It's not just carrying capacity, but also having to work with a meager hitpoint and spellpoint pool, having only one or two blows/round, not being able to detect what's going on around you, being unable to see invisible monsters, etc. etc. etc. All of these eventually become irrelevant as the player gains in power; should we then strip them away because they're therefore somehow pointless?

Is this supposed to be a joke? How can you argue so vehemently while undermining your own point? "It's not just carrying capacity, but also having to work with a meager hitpoint and spellpoint pool, having only one or two blows/round, not being able to detect what's going on around you, being unable to see invisible monsters, etc. etc. etc." Oh really? It's not only carrying capacity? Huh, well maybe those other things are sufficient to differentiate the early game from the late game. Weird idea, I know...

There are a lot of players who spend most of their time in the early/mid game, so just because something becomes irrelevant in the late game does not mean it is not an interesting part of the game for a lot of people.

What if the game were designed for people who can win at it?

[kandrc]

The only reason to carry so much stuff you hit encumbrance limits is if you're planning to sell stuff.

This is a ridiculous claim. In no-sell games, I'm managing inventory, and making equipment decisions on the cusp of encumbrance limits until usually about clvl 30/dlvl 90+. When I used to have to deal with selling, I'd only have one or two inventory slots for saleable objects. Said objects, if encumbering, were left on the dungeon floor while I adventured. 20 years ago, when I followed the "guides" (and didn't win), I'd have 10 or more slots devoted to revenue. I have to argue that if you're only facing encumbrance limits when selling, that you're not playing a strategy that maximizes winning/<variable> where <variable> is almost anything.

[kandrc]

What if the game were designed for people who can win at it?

They can turn on cheat death. I did it for years, still had fun, and learned how to win for real.