Tactically interesting obstacles

[Carnivean]

• No more door detection
• Doors are identified as such as soon as they're in LOS

Are there still going to be secret doors? If there are, is this another perception check?

[mushroom patch]

No magical detection of doors. No magical dealing with traps. Seems there's a large anti-red-book sentiment hereabouts. As was mentioned before, don't forget the mage-bargain. They are super weak and in return they are given magical mastery of the dungeon. Mages are already inferior to rogues vs. traps. Mages have to m-b-c every single step through long trapped corridors of a vault, having to make a tradeoff vs. spending a turn attacking/dealing with a monster, while rogues (at least once they reach 100% disarming) just wade through traps like they're not there.

?????

Mages are in no way forced to disarm traps while monsters are in LoS. What are you talking about?

[Bogatyr]

That was relief. The previous hour had been no fun at all.

No magical detection of doors. No magical dealing with traps. Seems there's a large anti-red-book sentiment hereabouts. As was mentioned before, don't forget the mage-bargain. They are super weak and in return they are given magical mastery of the dungeon. Mages are already inferior to rogues vs. traps. Mages have to m-b-c every single step through long trapped corridors of a vault, having to make a tradeoff vs. spending a turn attacking/dealing with a monster, while rogues (at least once they reach 100% disarming) just wade through traps like they're not there.

[Nick]

'With a suddenness that startled them all the wizard sprang to his feet. He was laughing! "I have it!" he cried. "Of course, of course!"'

Sure sounds like it.

That was relief. The previous hour had been no fun at all.

[MattB]

If anyone mentions the Doors of Durin, I say "Was Gandalf having any fun?"

'With a suddenness that startled them all the wizard sprang to his feet. He was laughing! "I have it!" he cried. "Of course, of course!"'

Sure sounds like it.

[Nick]

I should also mention that while we're removing boring lack of information, the following should happen to doors:

• No more door detection
• Doors appear as walls on magic mapping
• Doors are identified as such as soon as they're in LOS

Possibly both traps and doors are shown by Clairvoyance or !Enlightenment, or else it's just all LOS, all the time. Stair detection also goes, but stairs are shown by magic mapping.

If anyone mentions the Doors of Durin, I say "Was Gandalf having any fun?"

[Mikko Lehtinen]

I think Rogues should be better with traps than Mages, at every character level.

[Carnivean]

But it shouldn't just be "cast this spell to make traps irrelevant"

I agree. I didn't mean that mages get to bypass the trap system completely.

The toolkit you mentioned could include:
* a buff spell for perception that costs SP to maintain (if traps are common enough)
* a buff spell that detects magic residue (doubles as item detection and magic monster detection?)
* a jam complex mechanisms spell that increases in effectiveness with INT and clvl
* a protection from projectiles spell that initially stops dart traps, but eventually scales to block arrows (damage blocked = clvl? Greater damage passes through)

I'd hope that, as Nick mentioned, by the endgame a mage would almost be able to ignore traps. Mundane traps at least.

[MattB]

[*] "Explode trap" spell that removes traps but wakes nearby monsters too[*] Area effect/beam trap destruction that destroys objects too[*] Spell that relocates the trap to a random nearby square[/LIST]

These I like.
'+/-' idea seems fair recompense to me.

[bio_hazard]

Turrets and golems!

[Derakon]

I think I agree - at least for the early to mid game. The other mage feature is being able to do pretty much as they please in the endgame (banishment, etc), and so full mastery of traps at that point is perhaps reasonable.

Yes, this is fair. If you manage to get a mage to level 40 then you deserve some recompense.

Some interesting ideas there, folks. We could also have a spell that specifically disrupts complex mechanisms like turrets, but leaves simple ones like crushers or tripwires alone.

[Nomad]

Maybe split it down so different classes have spells to deal with different subsets of traps? Mages could get an area effect spell that destroys magical traps (teleport and summoning) but won't affect mechanical ones; green book classes could have a levitation spell that allows them to pass over pits and trapdoors without falling through; and maybe Rangers could have one that gives them temporary immunity to darts and gas traps. There could be a more general trap-removing spell that Rogues would get fairly early and pure casters in the late game.

Other ideas to replace the simple trap destruction/disarm spell:

• Spell that polymorphs a trap into another type of trap
• Spell that replaces the trap with rubble/granite
• "Explode trap" spell that removes traps but wakes nearby monsters too
• Area effect/beam trap destruction that destroys objects too
• Spell that relocates the trap to a random nearby square
• Trap destruction has a chance of triggering an earthquake
• One-time 'freeze trap' spell that lets you pass unharmed once, but will have to be cast again to move back through the same square

[Whelk]

But it shouldn't just be "cast this spell to make traps irrelevant" unless we can find some way to make that interesting. Unfortunately I'm short on ideas right now.

Spell: Shatter Loose Objects
Effect: Has a chance to destroy traps (technically, their components), doors, rubble, and objects/treasure in the affected area. Essentially anything that isn't a creature (or held by such) and isn't the wall/floor.

Eh ... trying to go for a "some good, some bad" risky sacrifice sort of deal that you can't just spam all the time with reckless abandon, but I don't think it's working.

Also: +1 to rogues being the trapmasters - not mages!

[Nick]

I don't think that magic should be a straightforward bypass of traps. Why should mages not have to deal with traps when other classes do? The only class with a clear bias towards having an easy time with traps is the rogue.

I mean, I'm not opposed to giving mages some kind of toolkit to help them cope with traps, since their entire shtick is "horribly weak, but has spells to help out". But it shouldn't just be "cast this spell to make traps irrelevant" unless we can find some way to make that interesting. Unfortunately I'm short on ideas right now.

I think I agree - at least for the early to mid game. The other mage feature is being able to do pretty much as they please in the endgame (banishment, etc), and so full mastery of traps at that point is perhaps reasonable.

[Derakon]

I don't think that magic should be a straightforward bypass of traps. Why should mages not have to deal with traps when other classes do? The only class with a clear bias towards having an easy time with traps is the rogue.

I mean, I'm not opposed to giving mages some kind of toolkit to help them cope with traps, since their entire shtick is "horribly weak, but has spells to help out". But it shouldn't just be "cast this spell to make traps irrelevant" unless we can find some way to make that interesting. Unfortunately I'm short on ideas right now.