suggestion: remove fuel, darkness/turn draining revisions

[ScaryMonster]

An unsolicited lurkers opinion.

There are numerous game mechanics in angband that interact w/ one another in various
ways to produce the charm which draws us all here. This charm is such that it is
able to include the wide range of playstyles that are voicing their viewpoints so
nicely. This charm, as far as I can see, accreted from discussions just like this one,
leading to one coder taking the idea and implementing it. Then the idea mutates and
spreads and some of them are from such a distant point in time that styles have changed.
I think that food and light source play suffers from the effect of fashion to a certain
degree, which is to say whim.

But that's where it's time to have a new haircut.

So, here's an notion of how to leverage the modularity of 4.0 that we are hearing about.
Use it to openly playtest the various subsystems of the game. In this specific case,
consider handling food thus...

Suddenly there appears an option in the preferences which says...
3.5-food
no-food
and
potentially future viewpoints on how food might be factored into the interplay.

From this point, something set w/ the prefs at the start of the game, just like the
ironman, randart, etc variants.

For the coder, I think tracking down and removing every trace of food inside the
mechanism creates a perfect base line for open minded consideration of things. It also
creates a roadmap for new interpretations to work from, namely the diff from the w/ food
version to the new nofood one.

There is more than enough interest and creativity in this group to easily come up with
multiple new interesting approaches.

I think that food could be quite cool but, it would take sweeping changes. This is the
least effort way that I can see for changes that large to make it into vanilla.

[mushroom patch]

So why doesn't everybody just win all the time? Do you win every game you play? If not, what kills you?

I can't speak to everyone. I don't win every game. Last time I played I died by incorrectly assessing the threat of new monsters in a recent version and not having adequate escape options to get out of it when I realized I had made a mistake. I believe the last time I died before that was trying to speedrun a mage and not having a good feel for the pace to keep in the early game.

I think all deaths in recent memory were in the early part of the game, < xl 15, where the escape options I've been talking about were not available. I don't think I've ever died when I had teleport level, banishment, or teleport other (again, in recent memory -- years ago I died to things like high damage breath and whatever, the usual stuff people get killed by). Recently, I more often fail to win a game by getting bored with it than by actually dying.

But we can sit here all day talking about how I die or how the hypothetical median angband player usually dies and so on, but it would be a lot more useful to know through actual records. I've suggested it before and I'll suggest it again: If we really want to know where the state of play is, what works and what doesn't without just appealing to our own intuitions, we need public servers with rigorous record keeping.

[mushroom patch]

Sorry for the double post...

On the food/light debate. I don't see why "no one who is experienced and/or competent dies of this" is a valid argument. Things don't need to kill you to justify continuing to exist. Food and light are interesting parts of the game, and do have an effect. Do you risk running out of food or light in the dungeon to get those two slots? Admittedly, recall being easy to acquire screws with that. I would be in favor of making food and light more interesting, perhaps by nerfing recall somehow. If you had no clue how long the dive would be taking you it could be pretty interesting - perhaps make portals to the surface appear randomly in the dungeon?

Is there an actual reason to assume competent play? I play idiotically all the time, and learning what not to do is a great part of the game.

The problem is you only learn what not to do once. It can't be as simple as "well, you're supposed to pick up and/or buy fuel" or "you're supposed to use detection and/or stealth to avoid being surprised by monsters with high damage breath attacks." It can't be that you learn a relatively short list of lessons and become an untouchable god of the dungeon. Knowing about a threat should not, in general, be enough to render it unthreatening, yet this is basically the situation in angband.

The reason you assume the player is competent is so that you're creating challenges that remain interesting even when you've come to terms with the basics of good play.

[Nivra]

Sorry for the double post...
The problem is you only learn what not to do once. It can't be as simple as "well, you're supposed to pick up and/or buy fuel" or "you're supposed to use detection and/or stealth to avoid being surprised by monsters with high damage breath attacks." It can't be that you learn a relatively short list of lessons and become an untouchable god of the dungeon. Knowing about a threat should not, in general, be enough to render it unthreatening, yet this is basically the situation in angband.

The reason you assume the player is competent is so that you're creating challenges that remain interesting even when you've come to terms with the basics of good play.

But even after you learn what to do, there are still ramifications. Would you use a lantern of true sight or the Phial? What if you are a warrior with major inventory constraints, and your current kit already has rBlind?

In my warrior winner, I eventually decided to go without both fuel and food. It meant I had to keep an eye out for ?Satisfy Hunger, Rations, and also I set up a macro to auto-refuel my lantern anytime I saw a flask or another lantern. It was my inventory constraints that caused me to do this. The safer way to play would have been to at least hold onto flasks so I wouldn't have to recall up/abandon a meaningful level if I ran out.

One of the advantages of caster classes is having access to Satisfy Hunger. Thus, you save an inventory slot. One of the advantages of the Phial/Arkenstone/Everburning is the same. Granted, it's a minor mechanic, but it's ramifications do affect the overall inventory-management aspect of Angband.

I know that I've held onto the Phial even while using ~True Sight because I wanted to switch back to it if given the chance. And in one game, i did switch back to it when I had rBlind from elsewhere.

Are these all minor in the grand scheme of things? Sure, but they do have impact.

All this being said, I do really like the idea of light radius being affected. Speaking of which, I think =Light could use a boost, maybe make the light radius 1d3 instead of just 1?

[mushroom patch]

rBlind does not matter. Inventory management is straightforward. People who have problems with inventory management are the same ones who try to get all resistances, can't part with a weapon that does 200 damage per round but 275 against trolls when their main does 250 per round against everything, etc. If you're playing to win, rather than for unnecessary intermediate goals (like getting all resistances, collecting all mushrooms, w/e), inventory management is not an issue.

[Nivra]

rBlind does not matter. Inventory management is straightforward.

Yah, I disagree. Inventory management is one of the core challenges of Angband. Which artifacts can you leave on the dungeon floor in order to stockpile more *Healing* potions? Which artifacts can you just discard? There is nothing "straightforward" about a lot of these questions. It depends on what stage i the game you are, where your character is, what other gear you have, etc.

[Derakon]

rBlind does not matter. Inventory management is straightforward. People who have problems with inventory management are the same ones who try to get all resistances, can't part with a weapon that does 200 damage per round but 275 against trolls when their main does 250 per round against everything, etc. If you're playing to win, rather than for unnecessary intermediate goals (like getting all resistances, collecting all mushrooms, w/e), inventory management is not an issue.

You keep making these absolutist statements about the game when one of its greatest strengths is that it can be enjoyed in many ways. Why should the game be designed specifically to favor your viewpoint?

[mushroom patch]

You keep making these absolutist statements about the game when one of its greatest strengths is that it can be enjoyed in many ways. Why should the game be designed specifically to favor your viewpoint?

This is also one of the greatest strengths of cardboard boxes and I suppose by extension Monopoly. To say something can be enjoyed in many ways does not say much for its merits as a game.

What these conversations in fact come back to is the idea that there's no standard by which to find angband deficient.

[wobbly]

Thing is by your own admission food & fuel is making zero difference to your own play while other people seem to like having them in. Why does it matter so much to you if it isn't in fact affecting your game experience. Personally I couldn't care less either way on this, though I do like having food in variants with wilderness & having the code already there in Vanilla is I assume a bonus for variant maintainers.

Regarding summons & teleports I'd be happy to see things change there. Other than being dead, confused or blind what stops tele-level being a perfect escape? I'd be happier with a short delay on it. A bit of tension while you try & stay alive while waiting for it to kick in.

[Grotug]

I guess I am the type of player mushroom patch refers to as I go bat-crazy trying to juggle what to keep and what to leave behind; and which artifacts and non-artifacts to stop saving in my home (and other useful items). I find inventory management to be one of, if not *the* most challenging part of the game.

I thought 'solving' the character was a very desirable thing to do before facing Morgoth or the last levels of the game? I find I don't have the mental acuity to keep up with holes in my character. If I lack rDisenchantment I hate that the solution is to just TO everything that might Disenchant me. I fatigue easily from checking everything I encounter for its details.

I die all the time to stubbornness and impatience. I suffer from 'attachment' syndrome, in which I want to kill the thing because it might drop something or because I want to secure the level. I hate leaving battles or levels before I've seen everything. And whenever I confront a Unique I feel a strong desire to kill the monster.... I want its drops. I want the vindication that the dungeon does not win; that I am not here to flee, but to fight. I am stuck in the mentality that I have to kill everything on my way to the final boss fight. I'm an explorer, I don't want to miss anything. I don't want to leave a stone unturned, a vault, a special room, a dingy corner of the map unscrutinized.

I tend to stockpile a lot of powerful escapes (?*destruction*, both ?banishes, TOs and others but rarely using them, though I do happily use ?Banish for Hellhounds and other things that are useless to my progression). I die because I'm too optimistic that RNG will roll in my favor. I die because I'm greedy, etc. Needless to say I have never won the game despite many times and hours playing.

Anyway, I totally agree with and relate to Nivra; I also had Phial and Truesight but no ability to see Invisible so I mained Phial and then swapped it out for Trusight when I started being attacked 'by something'. I also carried 2 other weapons in addition to my main because *slay demons* was so key against major demon hoardes as was *slay undead* for those hoardes (my other weapon). +++Speed made up for the overweight.

One of these days I'll play the game 'properly' and win. Morgoth knows I have enough experience to play properly and know what to look out for.

Mushroom patch, you make use of a good analogy with cardboard boxes to make your point, but I don't see how it applies to Monopoly? (I love that game and it was my favorite growing up), though I guess not everyone does. There really is only one proper strategy in monopoly. Get the best one you can and build as many houses as fast as you can without leaving yourself so vulnerable you have to sell them immediately.

[Bogatyr]

This is also one of the greatest strengths of cardboard boxes and I suppose by extension Monopoly. To say something can be enjoyed in many ways does not say much for its merits as a game.

What these conversations in fact come back to is the idea that there's no standard by which to find angband deficient.

I'll tell you what standard works to find angband awesome: the fact that I keep returning to it year after year, decade after decade. The cardboard box was fun when I was 5, but never again.

[mushroom patch]

Mushroom patch, you make use of a good analogy with cardboard boxes to make your point, but I don't see how it applies to Monopoly? (I love that game and it was my favorite growing up), though I guess not everyone does. There really is only one proper strategy in monopoly. Get the best one you can and build as many houses as fast as you can without leaving yourself so vulnerable you have to sell them immediately.

I say "and by extension Monopoly" because Monopoly comes in a cardboard box, with which one can have all the same kinds of fun as any cardboard box of that size and shape, but doing so ignores what makes Monopoly a game rather than a toy.

When someone says, "hey mushroom patch, you should stop taking angband so seriously and go play chess," they're not really defending angband as a game. They're defending it as a toy.

Part of what I'm saying here is that mechanics like food or fuel (and even resistances that don't contribute usefully to winning, which is quite a lot of them) are trappings of the game not very different from the box Monopoly comes in. When you spend a lot of time thinking about these things, deciding what kind of food items to buy at 1 or obsessing over details of your equipment that are totally unimportant, you're doing something more or less like playing with a tomagotchi (a digital pet keychain thing, for those who don't remember them). Tomagotchis are toys. I don't think games should get a lot of credit for encouraging this kind of thing.

[Timo Pietilä]

I say "and by extension Monopoly"
...
this kind of thing.

Pardon my language, but that's utter bullshit. Light has very important job in angband, you should try to expand that feature instead of make it go away.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Pardon my language, but that's utter bullshit. Light has very important job in angband, you should try to expand that feature instead of make it go away.

+1 here!

That, and I'm tired of being called "incompetent" by mushroompatch if I happen to have a @ die of starvation or lack of light. In some situations, it happens in the early game. Glutton ghosts, burned scrolls of recall, light drainers ... I win quite often, but not always. And sometimes @ dies even to the most mundane cause.

Light and food are both important learning curves for beginning players. They help prepare a player for more challenging problems later. Just because mushroompatch has apparently "perfectly" conquered this problem, doesn't mean everyone else has or that the problems are irrelevant or useless to others.

[Derakon]

Tomagotchis are toys. I don't think games should get a lot of credit for encouraging this kind of thing.

Feel free to correct me if I'm misunderstanding, but your stance appears to boil down to "games should consist of nothing more than a set of rules and a win condition". In other words, "gloss" and "flavor" are irrelevant, and game rules that exist solely to further gloss and flavor (with minimal game impact) should be discarded.

I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from. Your base premises are clearly very different from those of many users on this forum, and frankly you're not doing the greatest of jobs in explaining yourself without putting labels on players who don't agree with you.