4.1 feature branches

[nikheizen]

That point has now arrived!

Will this be save-compatible with my 4.0.4 save? I'd like to try out these new features.

[Nick]

Only if you compile yourself at this point. The knowledge one is still immature and a bit buggy. At some point they'll both be pulled into master, I expect.

That point has now arrived!

Latest master, built for Windows and OS X or available as source, now contains the cone breath and player knowledge changes - special thanks to Ingwe Ingweron for indefatigable testing.

Next feature branch will be rune-based ID.

[Zireael]

That knowledge limitation seems spiffy, will definitely test when it includes objects and monsters!

[Nick]

Any way to get both the knowledge limitation and the cone breath together?

Only if you compile yourself at this point. The knowledge one is still immature and a bit buggy. At some point they'll both be pulled into master, I expect.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Any way to get both the knowledge limitation and the cone breath together?

[Bogatyr]

I feel the same about all powerful escapes/removals, not just banish scrolls. I would *embrace* such a change.

I'm pretty sure I don't embrace such a change. How would you plan to compensate the mages then after taking away one of their major advantages? Mages require keen and predictable control of their encounters. An advantage for which they accept a very long period of being very weak (nearly to the endagme)?

[Nick]

There is now a second feature branch, based on changing how player knowledge works.

The first version of this is now built for Windows and OS X, and available on Github as source. So far, all that happens is that the player doesn't see out-of-sight terrain changes as they happen, but only updates their map info by mapping, detection or seeing directly. I plan to extend this to objects (so that out of LOS pickups don't get registered) and to having persistent (but progressively outdated) monster detection info.

It should be fine to use an existing character, but things will be really weird until you change level if you're switching back and forth between this branch and 4.0.3 regular.

[Nick]

The cone breath feature branch, updated to 4.0.3, has been built for Windows and OS X, and source is at Github.

[Zireael]

I agree with most of the reasons behind cone breaths and I also agree that the "/" should be avoided in branch names.

[Nick]

Do the nightlies (or 4.0.2, for that matter) include the feature branches?

Not currently. We're looking at making the feature branches available in a more obvious way, and at they will tend to be pulled into master branch (and hence be in the nightlies) once they've been adequately tested and discussed.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Do the nightlies (or 4.0.2, for that matter) include the feature branches?

[Grotug]

Already breath damage is based off of HP, so you don't know how much you're going to get. That's also not clear to the player. It's a lot more likely to assume that someone eating a cone breath from far away will get damaged less than someone close. So I don't think this is a good objection.

As far as "what is the point" there is a zero level point which is to make breaths and breathing monsters tactically different from ranged spellcasters. I think this is a great thing. There's a second added benefit in that breaths are the strongest attacks in the game, so that encountering multiple heavy breathing monsters is a death sentence. This removes tactical possibilities. If multiple breathers can be handled at the same time, then we gain tactical opportunities.

I totally agree with Fizzix on all points, especially the last one: for me, I play this game because it's terribly fun. I often make poor tactical decisions that I think will make the game more fun though they increase the chance that I'll die. CiP: Recently I was faced with lots of breath monsters at around 4500' and no way to deal with them except read my scroll of Mass Banishment. I tend to collect these banish scrolls but find I don't like using them because it's no fun. So I try to tactically deal with each monster, hoping I don't get breathed to death, but of course I do (I didn't realize Pit Fiend breathed Chaos! (you die.)

Slowing down combat resolution is fine as far as it goes. Are there plans to commensurately slow down escape effects, e.g. teleportation, as well?

I feel the same about all powerful escapes/removals, not just banish scrolls. I would *embrace* such a change.

Another idea is that breathing takes a lot of energy so monsters have to wait a turn before to build up the breath and also after as they are exhausted for a turn. This would give melee characters an extra few rounds to deal damage for each breath (although I guess this would also help ranged characters just as much).

I *really* like this idea as it makes sense and it allows you to whack away at the Dragon of Chaos for a few rounds without worrying about being breathed immediately again. The worst is when you get breathed two turns in a row.

To compensate for an easier, fairer game I think over powered --cheat code-esque-- removals should be phased out of the game, such as Mass Banishment and possibly Teleport Other.

As far as the stunning idea, why not? Player can be stunned, why not monsters. Whenever a *GREAT* hit is dealt, it could deal heavy stun to monsters not resistant to stunning. Although logically (I'm a fan of logic and things that make sense as it greatly increases how absorbed into the game I can become) I think the amount of damage a weapon does relative to how much HP the defending monster has should affect monster's stunnability. So a Dragon of Chaos, even if it's not resistant to stunning, would be very difficult to stun. I'll try to think of why, logically, amount of HP shouldn't matter, as the stunning idea is a good way to buy the player a saving throw of sorts. I also agree it would be a good way to give heavy weapons use in the early game as those DL20 orc uniques are brutal to the puny, developing @!

[Grotug]

I love this idea. Often time I don't see the point in firing from afar when the Dragon of Chaos can still cripple me with his -1000HP breaths. It's not like my arrows ever do as much damage as my melee weapon. But with this proposed change it means I could hit the Dragon of Chaos with my ranged weapon until it's down to about 55% health and then whack away with my melee weapon without the risk losing of all my HP in one breath of the dragon.

Easiest fix might be to increase the probability that a monster chooses to breathe (rather than move or cast a spell) if it is not next to the @?

A.

I like the cone idea, but maybe when the Dragon of Chaos is next to the @ he is less likely to breathe Chaos, preferring to gnash, bite and claw? Or maybe the @ has a chance of dealing double damage with his melee weapon right after the dragon breathes since a dragon with its maw wide open would be more vulnerable from a blow to the inside of his throat?

Only if they'd deal a lot of damage to their buddies and hardly any to the player, IMO. Morgoth's minions should not be very bright.

Or, at least, not very courteous.

[TJS]

Spitballed idea: monsters have a failure rate for breaths that is based on how many times they have been hit in melee in the past 3 turns. I don't know what the scaling should be, but the basic idea is that a warrior or hybrid class engaged in melee with a dragon ought to be able to significantly reduce the odds of the dragon successfully getting a breath attack off. Meanwhile, characters that fight at range don't get that advantage, but they also don't eat full-strength breaths, so it evens out.

The gloss is that it's a lot more distracting to have a warrior right in your face than it is to be bombarded by spells or missiles, even if you're taking comparable damage either way.

Alternative: give an evasion save vs. breath weapons that is easier the closer you are to the enemy and that reduces (but doesn't eliminate) the damage you take. It's easier to dodge breaths before they've had a chance to spread out, after all.

And then once we've successfully brought melee and ranged back into line re: expected damage taken, we can make breath weapons more common to compensate.

Not a massive fan of these ideas.

Perhaps melee has a chance of stunning the target, it can depend on strength, weapon weight and possibly accuracy too. Monsters could have a stun meter that builds up, so good melee characters can stun most monsters after 2-3 rounds of melee.

Once stunned a monster cannot breath or perhaps has a fail chance (and perhaps can't cast spells, although that would affect the player too), so this gives melee characters an incentive to get in close.

It would also give melee characters a reason to use heavy weapons early on in the game against say orc uniques and so forth as when stunned it is harder for them to hit the player.

The only downside of this is that heavy breathers are normally larger monsters so you'd expect them to be harder to stun. Perhaps even if slightly stunned they cannot breath at full strength.

Another idea is that breathing takes a lot of energy so monsters have to wait a turn before to build up the breath and also after as they are exhausted for a turn. This would give melee characters an extra few rounds to deal damage for each breath (although I guess this would also help ranged characters just as much).

Of course these ideas make the game way easier so something would have to be done about that.

[AnonymousHero]

Opinion seems to be divided on labeling of types of branches, and I have a really hard time caring

Me too, but I do think "/" should be avoided for the reasons stated.