Priest Class - Strategy/Tactics Discussion

Derakon · July 20, 2015, 22:39

The thing I have trouble with is gauging how much stealth is enough. You really only need enough so that you have a decent assurance that monsters won't wake up until you're "done" in their part of the dungeon. That might mean sneaking through the vault they're in, it might mean murdering a group of trolls one at a time, it might mean just being able to avoid getting into a fight with a mystic. But all monsters have different alertness levels, how awake they are is completely opaque, it's also dependent on your speed (higher speed = stealthier, because you get more actions per unit time)...it's a mess.

I don't remotely deny that stealth is useful. It's quantifying that utility that becomes tricky. Given that I'm capable of playing utterly non-stealthy characters, I tend to prefer to err on the side of more quantifiable benefits rather than taking more stealth. I know how valuable +50 HP or +6 to-damage or resistance to shards is; I don't know how valuable +3 stealth is. Sure, it's approximately twice as stealthy...but does that mean I get 5 more turns before some nasty monsters wake up? 10? 100?

Bogatyr · July 20, 2015, 22:30

Originally posted by Estie

By now I feel like I am on a crusade to correct "The Great Stealth Misconception", and failing. You are, of course, free to ignore stealth and give up on it all you like. But why you would do that just because you are playing a Half-Troll I dont understand.

The difference in stealth between a human and a Half-troll is 2. As in, if you have a human priest with an armor of resistance, and take a Half-Troll priest with the same items except for replacing the armor with one of elvenkind (+2 stealth), you have exactly the same stealth.

The fact that you even notice a small difference of 2 (if indeed you do and its not just preconception) should give an indication of what +10 stealth can do.

I've taken a beating here before for being a big fan of stealth. There's nothing like walking through levels of monsters as if time has stopped, picking and choosing exactly which items you want to retrieve and which monsters you want to fight, without worrying about picking up crowds of dangerous followers. Heroic is good, and I love Legendary if I can manage.

That's the way I like to play, so there :P.

Ingwe Ingweron · July 20, 2015, 15:11

Originally posted by Estie

By now I feel like I am on a crusade to correct "The Great Stealth Misconception", and failing. You are, of course, free to ignore stealth and give up on it all you like. But why you would do that just because you are playing a Half-Troll I dont understand.

The difference in stealth between a human and a Half-troll is 2. As in, if you have a human priest with an armor of resistance, and take a Half-Troll priest with the same items except for replacing the armor with one of elvenkind (+2 stealth), you have exactly the same stealth.

The fact that you even notice a small difference of 2 (if indeed you do and its not just preconception) should give an indication of what +10 stealth can do.

Thanks, Estie. It must have just been a matter of scotoma, the mind choosing to see what it wanted to see. I'll rethink my stealth approach for the Half Troll troop.

the Invisible Stalker · July 20, 2015, 09:41

Assuming the V stealth code is the same as FA's, and that I remember the latter correctly, an extra three stealth halves the chance per turn a monster waking up. Of course that's not of much help with monsters which are generated awake, but it's quite noticeable with the rest.

Estie · July 20, 2015, 08:46

Originally posted by Ingwe Ingweron

And when you play a Half-Troll Priest, as I am right now in my quest to win with every race/class combination, you just give up on stealth and hope for the best.

By now I feel like I am on a crusade to correct "The Great Stealth Misconception", and failing. You are, of course, free to ignore stealth and give up on it all you like. But why you would do that just because you are playing a Half-Troll I dont understand.

The difference in stealth between a human and a Half-troll is 2. As in, if you have a human priest with an armor of resistance, and take a Half-Troll priest with the same items except for replacing the armor with one of elvenkind (+2 stealth), you have exactly the same stealth.

The fact that you even notice a small difference of 2 (if indeed you do and its not just preconception) should give an indication of what +10 stealth can do.

wobbly · July 20, 2015, 08:38

You can go stealth early on a priest by being a hobbit. You've got the issue that your going to be very fragile & detect evil won't pick up everything but on the other hand the chances of something dangerous being awake is lower. I actually quite like the half troll priest as they're robust enough that being loud & a bad caster isn't going to matter till later when you've hopefully got the gear to fix the issue.

Ingwe Ingweron · July 20, 2015, 07:17

And when you play a Half-Troll Priest, as I am right now in my quest to win with every race/class combination, you just give up on stealth and hope for the best.

the Invisible Stalker · July 19, 2015, 22:39

There is one useful stealth related thing you can do in the early game: Don't rest. The longer you stay on a level the more things wake up. It's better to heal partly and move on rather than resting up for full hitpoints. Related to this, it's a good idea to switch levels frequently. It's much safer to explore bits of a few levels than all of one.

Estie · July 19, 2015, 21:19

Originally posted by marlowe221

How does one make use of stealth as a priest in the early game? Or is that even possible?

In the early game, you dont have enough stealth to matter. By the time you have gathered enough items with the propety, its midgame and your main offense is probably OoD.

As to how to make use of it, that is a rather difficult question. The short answer:

Develop the habit of not sticking around for long. That is, bail as soon as things get remotely uncomfortable, leaving the level. If you do that, you will notice that high stealth delays that point of bailing on average, thus allowing you to get loot/experience faster.

When exactly to leave or when to stay is the core aspect of the game, evaluation of risk versus reward. If you keep playing, youll develop a belly feeling for dangerous situations.

the Invisible Stalker · July 19, 2015, 20:45

Originally posted by marlowe221

How does one make use of stealth as a priest in the early game? Or is that even possible?

You don't, unless you are really lucky in what you find in the dungeon or shops.

To add a couple of things to what's been said so far,

- You probably want to cast bless before engaging in melee or ranged combat, but especially for ranged combat. Otherwise you're unlikely to hit much.

- The reason you want to inscribe your books is probably not obvious at this stage. You may find yourself without a particular book at some point. It could get burned up, you might drop it to create a pack space so you can pick up some very nice item in a vault, you might decide the spells in it aren't worthwhile, etc. If you're in the habit of casting spells in the usual way then "a" is the first book in your inventory, "b" is the second, etc. But when you drop or lose a book suddenly what was the third book may now be the second, for example. If you have the movements for casting spells in muscle memory then you can very easily find yourself casting the wrong spell, which can often be fatal. It's much safer to inscribe your books with numbers and cast spells using the numerical values, as these won't change as books enter or leave your inventory. After a few such experiences I just automatically inscribe Book 1 for whatever class I'm playing with @b1@m1@p1@G1!k!d!v, Book 2 with @b2@m2@p2@G2!k!d!v, etc. Similar remarks apply to wands, staves, etc., although I usually don't bother inscribing them.

marlowe221 · July 19, 2015, 19:22

How does one make use of stealth as a priest in the early game? Or is that even possible?

Bogatyr · July 19, 2015, 16:42

Originally posted by Estie

The point is that the sacrifices are minimal. Given the choice between a wisdom weapon and a (blunt) defender, I typically pick the wisdom weapon. If I get an elvenkind armor, its most of the time superior even disregarding the stealth bonus. As for rings, there are so many good possibilities that its rare for me to use mouse, even though it has happened; so at worst, I sacrifice shard resist (cloak) and nexus (boots) for stealth. Does that qualify as a "playstyle" ? I doubt it, but if so, I am convinced that it is indeed objectively superior

I just YASD's a promising clev 31 dwarf priest in a major vault that contained 2 dungeon praybooks, Himring, BootsOSpeed +4, on and on. As always, started feeling "invulnerable" and opened a door onto a "D" ethereal dragon, no light resistance, and died instantly.

BUT up to that point, I was playing a stealthy priest with stealth bouncing between Heroic and Legendary, with a blessed (+3 wis) weapon that had ESP, bouncing back and forth between that and a defender (+4 stealth). For non-melee characters, I highly prefer two +4 stealth =Mouse to get through the midgame without waking up stuff I want to stay asleep. Just the way I prefer to play. It was working great before I got stupid/complacent.