Add auto-explore to Angband 4.0

[fizzix]

If you're playing angband correctly (i.e. according to current thinking re: diving)

There isn't a "correct" way to play Angband (or DCSS for that matter) except to say that the correct way is one in which you are having fun. If that means clearing levels, then you should do that. Angband let's you do either, (dive or clear or something in between). The game doesn't judge you for the choices you take, and we shouldn't either.

Now, what is true is that Angband and DCSS are both balanced around a certain play style. In DCSS the balance is (relatively) easy, ensure the player has access to enough gear and enough XP to hit max level after clearing the Lair, the two Lair branches, the Vaults, the Orcish Mines, and is at the portal to Zot.

Angband balance is harder and it's a constant adjustment between stat generation and player feedback. If anything it's roughly balanced around something like 99% chance of success if you clear levels 1-99 once. Normal "optimum" playstyle involves hard diving to 95-99 and scumming for gear there, but this isn't necessarily fun (in fact I dislike it, so I don't do it.) You have a very good chance of getting enough gear by clearing ~50% of the good stuff of levels (taking care to loot vaults) and only visiting each level once. Regardless optimum playstyle isn't equivalent to funnest playstyle, so as long as you aren't competing for something like playcount, it's worth it to choose the fun play style, even if it's horridly suboptimal. If clearing levels 5-10 three times each is fun, then knock yourself out.

Nothing can attack you when it isn't in LoS and LoS is exactly what you see on the screen.

I don't think this is accurate, but I'm not entirely sure. From my plays of DCSS it appears that "max sight" is one square further than "max range" which is independent of the screen. Both of these are much smaller in Angband, I think around 8 squares or so. I prefer the DCSS range settings.

[Dwarf]

Nothing can attack you when it isn't in LoS and LoS is exactly what you see on the screen.

I don't think this is accurate, but I'm not entirely sure.

Not accurate, the poster was derailing the thread into personal comments. There are invisible monsters in DCSS, some very lethal. Running or auto-exploring into one before getting See Invisible can get you killed.

[mushroom patch]

No one said anything about invisible monsters, but this rule holds for invisible monsters as well: If an invisible monster is attacking you, it means the invisible monster is in LoS, which is to say the part of the map highlighted on screen.

@fizzix: Max range has nothing to do with what I said, which is that if a monster is not in LoS, it can't attack you. Moreover, there is no "off screen, but in LoS" in DCSS the way there is in angband, barring Dwarf's bizarre misinterpretation re: invisible monsters.

There are correct and incorrect ways to play any game that can be won or lost. Most people find winning fun, but when they give up on winning will settle for other definitions of "fun." But fair enough, perhaps I should have said "e.g." rather than "i.e."

[Cold_Heart]

Have you considered the fact that maybe some people would actually play angband just to play angband, because it's fun, and not to win angband?

[mushroom patch]

I think my comment does contemplate that situation...

[fizzix]

Moreover, there is no "off screen, but in LoS" in DCSS the way there is in angband, barring Dwarf's bizarre misinterpretation re: invisible monsters.

I wasn't talking about invisible monsters. From what I understand, DCSS has a max_sight, which is how far your character can see which is some number of squares, and a max_range which is how far effects can go, which I think is one less than max_sight. When a monster enters "max_range" you get a "x monster comes into view." This view is independent of window size, so if you had a tiny display window, for whatever reason, there could very well be a situation where a monster is "off screen" but still in range of attack.

In angband max_range = max_sight, so that there's a chance of running into LOS of a monster and it getting an attack on you that turn. That's the major difference when it comes to the danger of auto-explore.

[bio_hazard]

I've mentioned this in another thread, but I think a command similar to the DCSS command to path to the closest up or down stairs could be a useful time saver. Sometimes you are ready to leave the level, and the stairs are close enough that a respawned enemy is unlikely but it might still take a decent number of key presses to get to the stairs. It could show you the path and you could decide whether to take the risk of auto-running there or not.

[Cold_Heart]

Maybe a general "path to" command that accepts a symbol and attempts to run to the nearest instance of it.

run to -> + runs to nearest door
run to -> 1 runs to grocery shop
run to -> > runs to nearest stairs etc

[Timo Pietilä]

In angband max_range = max_sight, so that there's a chance of running into LOS of a monster and it getting an attack on you that turn. That's the major difference when it comes to the danger of auto-explore.

In addition to that in angband knights move rule applies in both ways, monsters can actually hit you when you can't see them if you are in bad position. Getting in LoS of couple of Dracoliches without you seeing them is entirely possible. Or, much worse case, go to open room full of plasma hounds. Or get teleported by nexus vortex because you didn't see it in dark corridor and get fried by whatever was into room you just landed. Or enter in LoS of Gravity hounds you would have known to avoid if you were in control instead of computer. Or....

In angband auto-explore will kill you.

[Dwarf]

In addition to that in angband knights move rule applies in both ways, monsters can actually hit you when you can't see them if you are in bad position. Getting in LoS of couple of Dracoliches without you seeing them is entirely possible. Or, much worse case, go to open room full of plasma hounds. Or get teleported by nexus vortex because you didn't see it in dark corridor and get fried by whatever was into room you just landed. Or enter in LoS of Gravity hounds you would have known to avoid if you were in control instead of computer. Or....

In angband auto-explore will kill you.

All of the examples you give are very high-level monsters. I've completed Angband honestly a few times in the past, and tried 4.0beta now. I had one game close to character level 30, but none close to that. Unless you've played Angband a lot, most of the playing time happens before you encounter those high-level monsters. Running on a highway will kill you, but that doesn't mean that running will.

I like some of the small changes in 4.0beta, but I have to say that without improvements to the user interface Angband will be obsolete. Most people who still like console-based roguelikes will stick to DCSS. DCSS gets updated two times a month, with regular competitions. Trying Angband 4beta is like picking up an old dusty book out of nostalgia, just to admit that there's better books out these days.

[Timo Pietilä]

All of the examples you give are very high-level monsters.

Gravity hounds appear around 1600'. That's 1/3:th through the game. Dracoliches at around 2000' which is still early game. Plasma hounds same. Nexus vortex way before stat gain. Native. In vaults much earlier.

I get to stat-gain in about hour of playing, which makes those monsters early game monsters to me. I get much slower deeper in dungeon.

Which monster of those is very high level in your opinion?

Maybe you just play very long time at early levels? Your suggestion actually implies that you tend to not only clear every level but actually explore every nook and corner, and that makes early game much more dangerous and slow. To compensate that you probably keep your char at overkill-status compared to monsters that are native at the depth. You can't keep your char at that status very long, at stat-gain you start meeting monsters that can kill you even at clvl 50 if you stumble upon them unprepared and unaware.

That's actually the beauty of the game, you can't let your guard down, there are monsters or group of monsters that can kill you no matter how buff you are. You have to apply some tactics to deal with them.

[Dwarf]

Gravity hounds appear around 1600'. That's 1/3:th through the game. Dracoliches at around 2000' which is still early game. Plasma hounds same. Nexus vortex way before stat gain. Native. In vaults much earlier.

I get to stat-gain in about hour of playing, which makes those monsters early game monsters to me. I get much slower deeper in dungeon.

Which monster of those is very high level in your opinion?

Maybe you just play very long time at early levels? Your suggestion actually implies that you tend to not only clear every level but actually explore every nook and corner, and that makes early game much more dangerous and slow. To compensate that you probably keep your char at overkill-status compared to monsters that are native at the depth. You can't keep your char at that status very long, at stat-gain you start meeting monsters that can kill you even at clvl 50 if you stumble upon them unprepared and unaware.

That's actually the beauty of the game, you can't let your guard down, there are monsters or group of monsters that can kill you no matter how buff you are. You have to apply some tactics to deal with them.

The one almost 30 level character managed to find an excellent bow early, followed by rod of acid balls and good armor. I played dwarf paladin, since I remember Angband had some balance issues, so that playing dwarf fighter/cleric/paladin was much safer than say elf/halfling ranger/mage. I didn't clear every level, I dived to around dungeon level 25 and scummed for good level feelings. Got two stat increases before teleporting to insta-death from a mob of paralyzing undead. There was no point were auto-explore would have killed me in any of the games, but teleporting did. A good run anyway, and I didn't even mind about having to press 3 keys for every fired arrow.

Most new players will do worse than me, and won't get to the monsters you mention early, unless they cheat with save files. Do you want to develop the game for the people that have already played it for years? In that case the game will vanish, since other players will find the archaic interface with tens of commands slow and plain weird. Auto-run and macros are not enough.

[Carnivean]

There was no point were auto-explore would have killed me in any of the games, but teleporting did.

In my understanding, these 2 things are essentially equal. Auto-explore takes real game turns, but no user turns, but in all other aspects they are the same. They both take you into the unknown, where the occupants can kill you before you are ready.

I think that's why there is a backlash against it. You're in essence telling everyone that they should jump around the map, into whatever is there, especially new players who don't understand the risk.

Unless I'm wrong, and they are completely different?

[Dwarf]

In my understanding, these 2 things are essentially equal. Auto-explore takes real game turns, but no user turns, but in all other aspects they are the same. They both take you into the unknown, where the occupants can kill you before you are ready.

I think that's why there is a backlash against it. You're in essence telling everyone that they should jump around the map, into whatever is there, especially new players who don't understand the risk.

Unless I'm wrong, and they are completely different?

Teleporting is something you have to do, if you get greedy and have to take the risk of ending in auto-death. Auto-explore you can stop using when you want. Teleporting will put you in the middle of monsters frequently, auto-explore will almost always put you at edge of vision from monsters.

[Timo Pietilä]

Teleporting is something you have to do, if you get greedy and have to take the risk of ending in auto-death. Auto-explore you can stop using when you want. Teleporting will put you in the middle of monsters frequently, auto-explore will almost always put you at edge of vision from monsters.

You are saying that you would not have run into those paralyzing monsters with auto-explore? In twisty corridor that's always the risk, starting from dlvl 1, unless you do detect monsters and deliberately avoid the monster in question.

If you want to make auto-explore as smart as human and being able to detect monsters and then avoid them, then what is the point of playing the game? Just get a borg and use it as screen saver.