The One Ring

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Deep inside enemy territory, alone, surrounded by countless hordes of terrifying enemies led by even more terrifying enemy generals, the last thing you would want is to alert everyone of your presense.

There is not as much broken about aggravation itself as about stealth since once things are awake they never stop chasing you.

If aggravation worked in some limited small radius, and things were to stop chasing the @ and go back to sleep once they can't find the @ anymore, that would probably make aggravate items useful for me.

For an example of Deathwreaker's potential, check out http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=17682

Sure, upon arrival on a level @ shouldn't be wearing it, but a convenient shovel or even fists are just fine. In fact, in this example, after finding Deathwreaker Galadriel went with bare fists on entry to all but the last level when she donned a recently found Sting. Don't knock bare fists, they do a reasonable amount of damage at the high levels and with good non-weapon gear modifications to hit and damage output. Some time ago, Ronda, my half-troll mixed martial arts warrior, took up MattB's challenge and managed a win using only fists the entire game.

Aggravation isn't really a problem with a high powered @, and in fact may be a benefit. Getting the monsters to flow to you for the slaughter saves time.

[Derakon]

Deep inside enemy territory, alone, surrounded by countless hordes of terrifying enemies led by even more terrifying enemy generals, the last thing you would want is to alert everyone of your presense.

Nah, if you're powerful enough, then the fact that everyone is beelining your position is not a big deal. The artifacts that have aggravation are typically very powerful, intentionally to make this tradeoff tempting.

[Cold_Heart]

I assume you mean Deathwreaker? Typically artifacts that have aggravation have them precisely because they are so powerful.

Aggravation shouldn't be a dealbreaker though. What about it is so awful?

Deep inside enemy territory, alone, surrounded by countless hordes of terrifying enemies led by even more terrifying enemy generals, the last thing you would want is to alert everyone of your presense.

There is not as much broken about aggravation itself as about stealth since once things are awake they never stop chasing you.

If aggravation worked in some limited small radius, and things were to stop chasing the @ and go back to sleep once they can't find the @ anymore, that would probably make aggravate items useful for me.

[MadeOfBees]

My precious.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Never is the excessive word in that. They are sometimes useful as swaps. Otherwise, not so much. You need to get absolutely insanely powerful char from the object before aggravating becomes no-issue. The One Ring is borderline item to tip that scale, if you can combine it with other aggravating extremely powerful item that you wouldn't usually use, then probably worth it. But that's where I draw a line, Deathwreaker for example isn't powerful enough as single item to be used as anything than swap.

I tend to find that for me Deathwreaker is powerful enough to justify wielding it, depending on the @ class. A mage or rogue, maybe not. But a warrior, almost definitely. I do wield a light weapon as a swap on initial arrival at a level in order to do detection checks and planning (Sting is great for this), but then it's "Come to Papa" time!

Then again...in my mind @ is becoming more of a "Dark Lord" himself by that point, ready to supplant both Sauron and Morgoth, take his crown and rule.

[Timo Pietilä]

They aren't ruined, they're just giving up more than an unstealthy character would be when they wield aggravating weapons.

I'm not saying that the aggravation mechanic couldn't use a rethink, I just think that the attitude of "items that aggravate are literally never worth using" is a bit excessive.

Never is the excessive word in that. They are sometimes useful as swaps. Otherwise, not so much. You need to get absolutely insanely powerful char from the object before aggravating becomes no-issue. The One Ring is borderline item to tip that scale, if you can combine it with other aggravating extremely powerful item that you wouldn't usually use, then probably worth it. But that's where I draw a line, Deathwreaker for example isn't powerful enough as single item to be used as anything than swap.

[Derakon]

Char that is stealthy is pretty much ruined by aggravation. Stealth is powerful if you have enough of it, especially when combined with high speed.

They aren't ruined, they're just giving up more than an unstealthy character would be when they wield aggravating weapons.

I'm not saying that the aggravation mechanic couldn't use a rethink, I just think that the attitude of "items that aggravate are literally never worth using" is a bit excessive.

[Timo Pietilä]

I assume you mean Deathwreaker? Typically artifacts that have aggravation have them precisely because they are so powerful.

Aggravation shouldn't be a dealbreaker though. What about it is so awful?

Char that is stealthy is pretty much ruined by aggravation. Stealth is powerful if you have enough of it, especially when combined with high speed.

I see the main problem with aggravation is that it wakes up everything in your LoS radius, even things that usually don't bother waking up until you are right next to them, and it is especially bad when there are breeders nearby.

I too never equip things that aggravate unless I'm wearing The One. Then anything goes, it doesn't matter anymore. For swaps it is OK, I can use whip of whatwasit for IMM_FIRE when fighting bunch of fire hounds/hellhounds/Hell Wyrm/hydra pit. After removing the threat I swap back to that less offensive but stealthy weapon.

[Derakon]

I would never wear an aggravate item. The fact that so many nice artifacts (eol gloves, mace of disruption) are ruined with this aggravate crap makes me sad.

I assume you mean Deathwreaker? Typically artifacts that have aggravation have them precisely because they are so powerful.

Aggravation shouldn't be a dealbreaker though. What about it is so awful?

[Cold_Heart]

I would never wear an aggravate item. The fact that so many nice artifacts (eol gloves, mace of disruption) are ruined with this aggravate crap makes me sad.

[AnonymousHero]

What's the hilarious consequence? Aggravation?

Yes. Aggravation. It's the worst possible thing that could possibly happen to any character in T2, esp. summoners or symbiants: Any pets will instantly turn on you. (Thus also making the Maia class completely pointless for any summoner-type class.... "but we won't tell you that until you reach level 20! Hah! We're so clever!")

I think I'll be changing it to a hefty stealth malus, but given the current state of the code base, it's a slog changing anything...

[PowerWyrm]

What's the hilarious consequence? Aggravation?

I suppose the random summoning on the ring summons friendly monsters...

[EpicMan]

Except if you're playing ToME 2.x. Then you really shouldn't. (But don't worry, the game will warn you repeatedly about it.)

EDIT: There's the regular consequence (I won't spoil it), but there's an especially "hilarious" consequence for Summoners and Symbiants.

What's the hilarious consequence? Aggravation?

[krazyhades]

I've never found it in twenty years!

Rogues are ludicrously good at scumming for it, but I'm assuming that's not how you're looking to find it.

[AnonymousHero]

He is absolutely right on all accounts. You MUST wear it.

Except if you're playing ToME 2.x. Then you really shouldn't. (But don't worry, the game will warn you repeatedly about it.)

EDIT: There's the regular consequence (I won't spoil it), but there's an especially "hilarious" consequence for Summoners and Symbiants.