to-hit or damage of shooter more important in final fight?

[Bogatyr]

There's a heavy crossbow of Accuracy (x4) (+32, +12) in the Black Market. I'm wielding a randart short bow that's +3 shooting power, so it's (x5) (+12, +14). I'm playing a human mage. I'm wondering if the +32 to hit would end up dealing more damage in the final fight on average by hitting more? I'm also saving up a +20 ring of accuracy (although I never end up using them). Since I'm a human I may need rings for status boosts (although I already have 18/*** INT covered and have +14 DEX via equipment so will have 18/*** DEX once DEX is maxed).

Or since I'm a mage should I just go the wands of drain life / annihilation / mana storm route? I don't think I've ever taken down the big guy with spells alone but with the magic device damage modification, maybe that's the way to go? I love this artifact bow since it's so light yet really packs a wallop.

edit: char dump: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=17078

[Derakon]

I'd go with spells and devices, honestly. I don't think that +40 to-hit is going to make a difference of more than maybe 10% in your hit rate against Morgoth, and that's if you sacrifice a ring slot -- surely you have better things to put on your fingers! Hell, a spare Ring of Speed will make a bigger difference, even if you're well above +30 speed.

EDIT: good god man, wear your speed rings! And your speed boots! There is absolutely no way that +11 stealth from your Rings of the Mouse / Boots of Stealth is better than +21 speed.

[Bogatyr]

I'd go with spells and devices, honestly. I don't think that +40 to-hit is going to make a difference of more than maybe 10% in your hit rate against Morgoth, and that's if you sacrifice a ring slot -- surely you have better things to put on your fingers! Hell, a spare Ring of Speed will make a bigger difference, even if you're well above +30 speed.

EDIT: good god man, wear your speed rings! And your speed boots! There is absolutely no way that +11 stealth from your Rings of the Mouse / Boots of Stealth is better than +21 speed.

Sure seems to make a difference to me...with all stealth items on ('Legendary'), basically nothing ever wakes up (well Radaghast woke up but I put on the int/speed boots and 0% fail teleported him away). With even 3 less stealth, things wake up once in a while. I swap out to all speed items for (important) fights, then put stealth back on to walk around. I pick my fights very carefully only after probing to make sure I have adequate resists, with my puny hit points. Woohoo found artifact armor just now that gives +3 MORE stealth and immune cold... haha I love stealth! I'd play rogues all the time except I like the "infinite utility" magic of the mage too much. Have to really tip-toe around though because of sucky HP.

So yeah, I switch to speed for combat. Funny thing was not long ago the super dex boost meant equivalent or more damage with the rings of the mouse equipped even considering their negative damage!

[Derakon]

That's all well and good, but realize that there are plenty of monsters in the dungeon that are never asleep and move at least at +10 speed. You are putting yourself at serious risk of instadeath from those monsters by walking around at normal speed.

+21 speed also effectively triples your stealth compared to base, since monsters are given fewer opportunities in which to wake up. It's not as much as the +11 stealth is (which should be on the order of 10x stealthier), but frankly I personally would not want to be swapping gear around for every fight I get into. Not to mention, those speed rings are vulnerable to electrical attacks as long as they're sitting in your inventory!

[MattB]

In answer to the title of your post, +dam is waaaaaaaayyy more important.

Rudimentarily, let's say your arrow does 5 damage.
Xbow: 4x(12+5)=68
S.Bow: 5x(14+5)=95
(not exactly how it works, but a good rule of thumb)

The extra accuracy will add maybe 5% more damage to the former, but no way near enough to make it better.

Hope that helps - good luck

P.S. To my mind, I think a RoAccuracy +15 is about equivalent to a RoDam +3.
It depends on all sorts of things, so YMMV, but accuracy is definitely comparatively useless.

[Bogatyr]

That's all well and good, but realize that there are plenty of monsters in the dungeon that are never asleep and move at least at +10 speed. You are putting yourself at serious risk of instadeath from those monsters by walking around at normal speed.

+21 speed also effectively triples your stealth compared to base, since monsters are given fewer opportunities in which to wake up. It's not as much as the +11 stealth is (which should be on the order of 10x stealthier), but frankly I personally would not want to be swapping gear around for every fight I get into. Not to mention, those speed rings are vulnerable to electrical attacks as long as they're sitting in your inventory!

That's why I cast reveal monsters very frequently and avoid almost all blue monsters! I never enter an area without detecting first. And I recall with the speed/int boots on to have 0% fail escapes.

I do not find the "effective stealth" of speed argument compelling. At low stealth but high speed, LOTs of things wake up. With my stealth package I can cherry-pick in at least small vaults. Basically NOTHING EVER wakes up on me which is the way I like it

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Who cares if everything wakes up?! When you're @ is fast, waking things is just fine. You can win many, many more fights, level up in experience and get good drops that much faster. As you progress in your skill level and enter competitions, you will become more concerned with turncount and speed really helps with that. Plus, at some point you will find gear which aggravates creatures, effectively negating stealth, but with such tremendous power together with your speed that you will welcome not having to chase the buggers down. They'll come to you.

[mushroom patch]

The argument re: speed vs. stealth isn't a qualitative kind of thing where reasonable people can disagree. It's a matter of mathematics.

Anyway, you have way, way more stealth than is actually useful. +4 on the melee weapon, +4 on each ring, +3 boots, +2 cloak... The stealth bonuses from the cloak and the weapon are more than enough.

[MattB]

As you progress in your skill level and enter competitions, you will become more concerned with turncount

Will I?

;-)

[AnonymousHero]

That's why I cast reveal monsters very frequently and avoid almost all blue monsters! I never enter an area without detecting first. And I recall with the speed/int boots on to have 0% fail escapes.

I do not find the "effective stealth" of speed argument compelling. At low stealth but high speed, LOTs of things wake up. With my stealth package I can cherry-pick in at least small vaults. Basically NOTHING EVER wakes up on me which is the way I like it

You can be insta-killed by various species of hounds (not just time hounds) if you're not very careful, which means ALWAYS casting either (Mass) Banishment Genocide or Create Doors as soon as you enter a level. Actually, AFAICT you can even be insta-killed (if you get slightly unlucky) even if you do cast Create Doors since hounds will be so much quicker than you. Banishment leaves you open to an unlucky wake-up by a unique.

Wear the speed items, forget about stealth. For your own good.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Will I?

;-)

Well...unless you do something completely insane, like decide to take up some crazy challenge like not using anything but fists to harm monsters....

Personally, I'm still working on my turncount problem. Never can get it low enough to do well in competitions.

[Bogatyr]

The argument re: speed vs. stealth isn't a qualitative kind of thing where reasonable people can disagree. It's a matter of mathematics.

Anyway, you have way, way more stealth than is actually useful. +4 on the melee weapon, +4 on each ring, +3 boots, +2 cloak... The stealth bonuses from the cloak and the weapon are more than enough.

You're right about the mathematics: DracoLisk + no nexus resist + puny mage HP = instadeath, so that D better darn well stay asleep. Stealth wins here IMO.

More than enough….for what? What I have actually experienced is that without the full kit of stealth, things wake up, with it, they don't. Seems a pretty important consideration when picking through a vault with a monster that could insta-death me in one turn.

Who cares if they wake up? I do! Everyone keeps saying "playing a mage is all about *choosing your fights*" which I've embraced. I pick only those monsters who's attacks I have covered in resists, etc., and have a nice exp/HP ratio. Seems eminently reasonable.

I also have ESP so I see the hounds from a mile away, and like I said, when I switch levels I do go in with more speed. I also walk around always at least at +10 through the spell.

[AnonymousHero]

You're right about the mathematics: DracoLisk + no nexus resist + puny mage HP = instadeath, so that D better darn well stay asleep. Stealth wins here IMO.

Stealth cannot guarantee that you can won't get immediately double (or even triple-moved) when something unexpectedly wakes. Yes, when -- stealth is not a guarantee and it will fail at some point.

Anyway, it's your game and you can play it how you like -- just make sure you finish in a hurry so that all those accumulated 1% failure chances don't get you killed.

[Bogatyr]

Stealth cannot guarantee that you can won't get immediately double (or even triple-moved) when something unexpectedly wakes. Yes, when -- stealth is not a guarantee and it will fail at some point.

Anyway, it's your game and you can play it how you like -- just make sure you finish in a hurry so that all those accumulated 1% failure chances don't get you killed.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of tons of speed. Speed and excellent detect (esp being just about the best detect) being just about the most important factors in the game. Speed alone can defeat any monster that doesn't wall-eat/walk via pillar dancing.

Point taken, though, about *when* they wake up. I just like to manage it so that I don't have hoardes descending upon me at all times. Warrior, no problem, bring on the hoardes and the aggravating equips. Mage, big problem, I like one on one with mages. I use aggravating equip with mages sometimes in fact to lure the bid baddy to my prepared pillar .

[PowerWyrm]

edit: char dump: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=17078

The equipment on this character is a complete nonsense for a mage...

You should be using at once:
- Long Sword of Elwendor (4 resists: poison, dark, nexus, chaos)
- Ring of Constitution <+4> (more hps)
- Ring of Speed <+8> (obvious)
- Robe of Permanence (resist base + sustains)
- Pair of Steel Shod Boots 'Lirnor' (+7 INT/speed as a mage and it's not equipped???)

By the way, stealth is completely pointless when you have TO + ESP.

And about the original question... none of them are important as mage, you kill Morgoth with spells. Get the shooter that gives the most stats, speed and resists.