randSpellbooks

[fizzix]

I'll just leave this out here...

...again...

I was going to say that I don't remember seeing that, but then, yeah, I commented in that thread. So I just forgot it.

In retrospect, I think I prefer Sil's approach of dueling rolls. I think that solves some of the problems, since you have a good chance of gauging how probable an effect is to hit.

[Bogatyr]

I'll just leave this out here...

...again...

read it this time. A more helpful title like "link to suggestions about confuse/sleep/slow" might have grabbed my attention more than "this" :P

[Derakon]

I'll just leave this out here...

...again...

[Bogatyr]

I sort of agree with Derakon, and there's a fine line where it becomes too overpowered that it's no longer fun. If a mage can confuse and slow most monsters, and pelt them with powerful spells from a distance, then the mage is too powerful. If it can only do one of the two, then it becomes interesting. To this point Angband has solved the issue by making confusion spells unviable. Really what I want would be something like an assassin class that has powerful debuff spells and huge melee bonuses when the monster is confused or asleep.

Still, this is theory-crafting, and I've sometimes been surprised with the results once I take an idea and playtest it. It actually shouldn't be too difficult to alter confuse and sleep so that they cost less and work more often. Then you can test play it and see what you think!

I think we're far away from that line. Confuse is completely unviable against just about anything interesting. You can envision a viable use of it giving a slight advantage over not using it at all. After all, the mage is spending an entire turn on the cast, which in the presence of a breather is very dangerous, there should be a benefit for taking that risk. One way is to make it mostly a defensive/escape spell -- damage could "snap awake and unconfuse", for example. Another is to limit the duration, so that the mage can risk one turn for having a few "haste-like" turns as a result. Having a maximum confusion duration is another way to prevent it from being too overpowered, but remain a viable tactic.

We just spent a lot of time talking about all the massively powerful utility spells, and that the less useful attack spells are the cost. Well, let's make those utility spells meet that standard.

[AnonymousHero]

I sort of agree with Derakon, and there's a fine line where it becomes too overpowered that it's no longer fun. If a mage can confuse and slow most monsters, and pelt them with powerful spells from a distance, then the mage is too powerful. If it can only do one of the two, then it becomes interesting. To this point Angband has solved the issue by making confusion spells unviable. Really what I want would be something like an assassin class that has powerful debuff spells and huge melee bonuses when the monster is confused or asleep.

Still, this is theory-crafting, and I've sometimes been surprised with the results once I take an idea and playtest it. It actually shouldn't be too difficult to alter confuse and sleep so that they cost less and work more often. Then you can test play it and see what you think!

Maybe there should be an actual game mode where we can "do enough stats" (insert enough handwaving) and randomize the properties of the game itself... and then use a genetic algorithm to converge to an "optimal game" (again, handwaving about what optimal means)?

[fizzix]

Yeah but we can still fix what can be improved, as previously noted, namely confuse/slow/sleep having effective tactical use beyond the early game.

I sort of agree with Derakon, and there's a fine line where it becomes too overpowered that it's no longer fun. If a mage can confuse and slow most monsters, and pelt them with powerful spells from a distance, then the mage is too powerful. If it can only do one of the two, then it becomes interesting. To this point Angband has solved the issue by making confusion spells unviable. Really what I want would be something like an assassin class that has powerful debuff spells and huge melee bonuses when the monster is confused or asleep.

Still, this is theory-crafting, and I've sometimes been surprised with the results once I take an idea and playtest it. It actually shouldn't be too difficult to alter confuse and sleep so that they cost less and work more often. Then you can test play it and see what you think!

[Bogatyr]

Then you have to cope with the lack of direct firepower capacity. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Yeah but we can still fix what can be improved, as previously noted, namely confuse/slow/sleep having effective tactical use beyond the early game.

[Derakon]

Great reason not to play the others. I like the choice and the ability to adapt to the situation (fire vs. ice) in vanilla angband.

Then you have to cope with the lack of direct firepower capacity. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[fizzix]

Of course the downside is that you never may be able to build up the current level of spell books in the same number of slots. Mordinkanen's is a uniformly very useful book, I'd hate to have to piece it together out of 3 or 4 books. If so, then inventory size would need to be looked at. edit: make it a birth option, like randarts. Every randart game is a different game. Each randspellbook games for casters would be similarly different.

The easy solution would be also to provide rare blank spellbooks with capacity for 3-4 spells. However, there's no good reason we shouldn't be thinking about modification to inventory anyway. It's long overdue for an overhaul.

[Bogatyr]

I'm going to make three completely disparate points that this thread has reminded me of.

1) Spell-class specialization. Many other roguelikes force their spell-dealing classes to choose some form of specialisation. For example, you can choose to cast fire spells or ice spells, but not both. This is what allows distinctions between different runs of the same class.

Great reason not to play the others. I like the choice and the ability to adapt to the situation (fire vs. ice) in vanilla angband.

Angband doesn't do this. The only difference between successive runs of a mage class is the order in which you find the dungeon books. This is why I like the randomized book idea. It brings in some difference in the way a mage run will play out.

Hmm, Maybe this won't be terrible. But then one should continue to find randomized books all through the game, and maybe able to eventually drop 2 books and replace them with one book that has what you actually use. Of course the downside is that you never may be able to build up the current level of spell books in the same number of slots. Mordinkanen's is a uniformly very useful book, I'd hate to have to piece it together out of 3 or 4 books. If so, then inventory size would need to be looked at. edit: make it a birth option, like randarts. Every randart game is a different game. Each randspellbook games for casters would be similarly different.

This is also why Raal's seems underwhelming, and the best spell in it is probably Rift, and not the many ball spells it has. Your acid bolt is probably just as damaging as most of the Raal's spells.

Raal's is underwhelming because of the immense mana cost of the spells. That can be adjusted to make the spell book live up to its name.

3) Angband sucks at debuffs. While Angband is pretty good with its buff spells (haste, bless, resistance, prot. from evil) it's pretty awful with debuff, or status effect spells. They cost too much and are too unreliable. I'll make use of wands of confuse or slow monster in the early game, but I don't think I'll ever cast the spell. When we're thinking of improving mage (and priest) classes, this seems like a prime target area.

Totally agree here (it was my initial point in this thread), slow/sleep/confuse begins and ends with "o"'s and "p"s generally. I'd like to see these spells remain useful up to and through the endgame.

[Derakon]

3) Angband sucks at debuffs. While Angband is pretty good with its buff spells (haste, bless, resistance, prot. from evil) it's pretty awful with debuff, or status effect spells. They cost too much and are too unreliable. I'll make use of wands of confuse or slow monster in the early game, but I don't think I'll ever cast the spell. When we're thinking of improving mage (and priest) classes, this seems like a prime target area.

I'll just leave this out here...

[fizzix]

I'm going to make three completely disparate points that this thread has reminded me of.

1) Spell-class specialization. Many other roguelikes force their spell-dealing classes to choose some form of specialization. For example, you can choose to cast fire spells or ice spells, but not both. This is what allows distinctions between different runs of the same class. Angband doesn't do this. The only difference between successive runs of a mage class is the order in which you find the dungeon books. This is why I like the randomized book idea. It brings in some difference in the way a mage run will play out.

2) Multi-targeted damage spells are for convenience only. There are very few games that make good advantage of the many vs. one situation in roguelikes. For the most part, they all revolve around trying to separate tough enemies from each other and handle them individually. Angband is probably on the extreme end of desiring 1v1 engagements. That's why single target damage spells (bolts) are just as good (and sometimes better) than multi-damage spells (balls). This is also why Raal's seems underwhelming, and the best spell in it is probably Rift, and not the many ball spells it has. Your acid bolt is probably just as damaging as most of the Raal's spells.

3) Angband sucks at debuffs. While Angband is pretty good with its buff spells (haste, bless, resistance, prot. from evil) it's pretty awful with debuff, or status effect spells. They cost too much and are too unreliable. I'll make use of wands of confuse or slow monster in the early game, but I don't think I'll ever cast the spell. When we're thinking of improving mage (and priest) classes, this seems like a prime target area.

[quarague]

I'd say a level 40+ mage has enough hitpoints to survive a single attack from any monster out there (provided he has the basic resists + poison covered). He can easily die to 2 or 3 hits, whether from the same monster with high speed or from multiple monsters at once. But these are things than can be avoided through careful (and tedious) playing. A warrior is much tougher and can take multiple hits from almost anything, making him much more forgiving to play.
I would also say that taking occasional calculated risks is more fun (and much faster) than trying to play with zero risk, especially when playing mages.

[Bogatyr]

I think current high level mages have massive power due to their incredible range of utility spells. I would say, a level 40+ warrior can die due to a combination of unfortunate circumstances, a level 40+ mage only ever dies through stupidity of the human playing him.

That's simply not true. There are unresistable breaths, power curses/mortal wounds, etc., and bad luck or just sheer numbers of opponents can land you in a place where the mage's puny hit points are quickly overwhelmed, even if you're casting detect/reveal every few steps. As Derakon noted, in order to make progress, it is unavoidable that you must put yourself at risk. With a mage, you're rolling a particularly dangerous die standing in line of sight of anything with a heavy distance attack. It takes a mighty long time getting to level 50 via magic missiing molds. At some point you must take on the big boys.

But point taken, the mage does have great utilities, which is why I enjoy playing them.

[quarague]

But the mystique of the mage to me is the massive power that a high level mage should posses.

I think current high level mages have massive power due to their incredible range of utility spells. I would say, a level 40+ warrior can die due to a combination of unfortunate circumstances, a level 40+ mage only ever dies through stupidity of the human playing him. But this power does not come through the mages damage dealing abilities, but rather his utility spells.

One can imagine a class that has massive power from spell based damage abilities, and that would be interesting as well. To make such a class well balanced it should have a much more limited range of utility spells. As I think current mages are an interesting class that should be kept, this should be a new distinct class. Which one of the two will be called mage is rather irrelevant to me.