Has anyone seen this before?

[Nick]

Is it permanent? Can you do stair creation or level teleport? Alter reality? Destruction?

Because those would be my means to survive there. Boring level wont become interesting by making it annoying. You need to add some sort of reward so that there is actual reward to do all that stuff, like navigating that tiny maze or avoiding teleports to get to stairs faster.

If I start from up-side and am near the stairs I would simply take them to get out of there. If I start from the other side I take those stairs. I would not bother to go to that maze-section at all if I know that other side of that is just as boring as this side is.

You'll just have to wait and see

[Timo Pietilä]

I'm sure that I have seen a labyrinth level with permanent walls;I'm not so sure whether it was in vanilla. Could have been FAangband.

I think I have seen that as well. Didn't make maze any less annoying though. Trap doors, teleport level etc. Only good thing in those is that they are usually quite small and if there is some summoner unique they provide quite good environment to deal with them.

[Timo Pietilä]

and that the central labyrinth which is mapped in the picture actually can't be mapped by magic means.

Is it permanent? Can you do stair creation or level teleport? Alter reality? Destruction?

Because those would be my means to survive there. Boring level wont become interesting by making it annoying. You need to add some sort of reward so that there is actual reward to do all that stuff, like navigating that tiny maze or avoiding teleports to get to stairs faster.

If I start from up-side and am near the stairs I would simply take them to get out of there. If I start from the other side I take those stairs. I would not bother to go to that maze-section at all if I know that other side of that is just as boring as this side is.

[Spacebux]

Hm, maybe light room spell should increase range with level and eventually become a LoS -effect at high levels? Priests have clairvoyance which lights up entire dungeon, giving light spell a bit more power would not be game breaking change.

Tiny problem with that though would be waking up every monster in sight.

If the light spell or scroll effect were doubled, say, on cavern levels, I don't think that would break the game, either. But, as you also pointed out, it would wake that many more mobs. Eventually getting to a LoS-effect would be a nightmare 'q' code-wise, wouldn't it?

[Nick]

I'm sure that I have seen a labyrinth level with permanent walls;I'm not so sure whether it was in vanilla. Could have been FAangband.

FAangband does not have this. It's V, and labyrinths can have either permanent or non-permanent walls.

[Mondkalb]

With any digging ability maze isn't really a maze. You see something close by and if you need to walk a lot to get it, you just make a shortcut. If it were permanent walls then it would really be maze. OTOH if there is nothing

I'm sure that I have seen a labyrinth level with permanent walls;I'm not so sure whether it was in vanilla. Could have been FAangband.

[Nick]

Cavern with a room? Would make caverns a bit more interesting if they had one lesser vault (at least) in them. Maybe some vault type that is not found outside of cavern levels.

With any digging ability maze isn't really a maze. You see something close by and if you need to walk a lot to get it, you just make a shortcut. If it were permanent walls then it would really be maze. OTOH if there is nothing interesting into level then permanent walls made it just more boring.

This is one of the (several) variant level types I have been playing with.

If you look closely you will see that the cavern on one side only has up stairs, and the one on the other side only has down stairs. What you can't see is that on the up side you can't teleport (only phase), and that the central labyrinth which is mapped in the picture actually can't be mapped by magic means.

[Timo Pietilä]

The other issue is lighting the room - normally, I'm used to lighting a room; but in a cavern level, without well defined rooms, light spells / scrolls are only effective to a given range.

Hm, maybe light room spell should increase range with level and eventually become a LoS -effect at high levels? Priests have clairvoyance which lights up entire dungeon, giving light spell a bit more power would not be game breaking change.

Tiny problem with that though would be waking up every monster in sight.

[Timo Pietilä]

¿por qué no los dos?

Cavern with a room? Would make caverns a bit more interesting if they had one lesser vault (at least) in them. Maybe some vault type that is not found outside of cavern levels.

With any digging ability maze isn't really a maze. You see something close by and if you need to walk a lot to get it, you just make a shortcut. If it were permanent walls then it would really be maze. OTOH if there is nothing interesting into level then permanent walls made it just more boring.

I don't think those levels can be made interesting unless you really make them level-wide vaults with vault-like treasure somewhere in them. Center room of somekind.

[Spacebux]

I actually just encountered a cavern level. The "rooms" weren't very big, though. Also, there were enough 1-space passages to help me fight a few hordes of orcs without too much trouble.

I'm just surprised that I haven't encountered a labyrinth or cavern level sooner. I guess that's what you get with randomly generated levels.

The other issue is lighting the room - normally, I'm used to lighting a room; but in a cavern level, without well defined rooms, light spells / scrolls are only effective to a given range.

While I understand the concept, early on, with limited spell range or candle-light power, its quite frustrating to navigate a cavern level. Later on, when potions of enlightenment are readily available, this isn't an issue.

My two biggest gripes/groans about cavern levels are:

Navigability.
Insufficient lighting.

Other than that, I'm ok with caverns. Lines of sight tend to go both ways.

[Medieval]

Big, irregular rooms connected by short, or no, passages. The danger of this is that you can't easily get out of line of sight of things. Like Spacebux says, they are fiddly to run around.

I actually just encountered a cavern level. The "rooms" weren't very big, though. Also, there were enough 1-space passages to help me fight a few hordes of orcs without too much trouble.

I'm just surprised that I haven't encountered a labyrinth or cavern level sooner. I guess that's what you get with randomly generated levels.

[MattB]

I don't think I've seen a cavern level either. What are they like?

Big, irregular rooms connected by short, or no, passages. The danger of this is that you can't easily get out of line of sight of things. Like Spacebux says, they are fiddly to run around.

[Spacebux]

I don't think I've seen a cavern level either. What are they like?

I don't really care for the cavern levels -- difficult to navigate.

They look cool, but they're just hard to run around.

[Medieval]

They are quite boring though (at least unless you are playing ironman and downstairs is guarded by something you can't handle). Cavern levels are better.

I don't think I've seen a cavern level either. What are they like?

[Medieval]

Yep, that's a labyrinth level. They're new as of...3.3? I think?

That explains it. I've been playing version 3.4.0 for a while now but I've never seen one of those. Interesting...