Newbie problem

[mcgryfi]

I've just found a monster vault at lev 10. it is surrounded by pernament walls - I cannot teleport inside, dig a surroundng wall or use Stone To Mud on them. And here is quite a newbie question: how can I get there? Thanks in advance for help.

[Bandobras]

I bet 1 to 1000 there is a granite wall somewhere on the perimeter. With some real world magic you can even highlight the permanent walls and see for yourself...

[steeg1234321]

explain your real world magic please lol

[MKula]

He means you should 'l'ook all around the perimeter of the vault. At least one of the wall tiles should be granite, which will involve digging. If it's the lesser vault I'm thinking of (there are only 1 or 2 lesser vaults with permanent walls), you might have to dig a tunnel all around the vault to find the granite "way in".

EDIT: To answer the other part of you question: you have to dig; there's no other way. Either with a shovel, with a Stone to Mud item, or with the spell of the same name. If yo can do none of these things... well, you're out of luck; the vault is inaccessible for you.

[Djabanete]

Or you can "interact with graphics" and change permanent walls to a different color than regular walls.

[Rizwan]

Or you can "interact with graphics" and change permanent walls to a different color than regular walls.

It seems many people, including myself, face or have faced this problem. I think vaults are difficult enough by themselves that trying to find that one block feels like an injustice. When I had help on this my adviser suggested i shift to graphics old tiles and lo and behold the diggable tile was highlighted. I was thinking that maybe permanent walls could be permanently differentiated from diggable walls in ascii so as to be spared the anguish at least of finding the entrance to the thing. Clearing it out is another matter though

[MKula]

I was thinking that maybe permanent walls could be permanently differentiated from diggable walls in ascii so as to be spared the anguish at least of finding the entrance to the thing. Clearing it out is another matter though.

I dunno... vaults aren't supposed to be easy. They're supposed to be hard to access (it wouldn't be much of a 'vault' if any joe-shmoe could just walk through the front door).
I would, in fact, be in favour of the exact opposite and have more of the vaults harder to access; some of the current ones are just 'bonus' rooms - lots of free loot with no difficulty getting there.

[Colbey]

I dunno... vaults aren't supposed to be easy. They're supposed to be hard to access (it wouldn't be much of a 'vault' if any joe-shmoe could just walk through the front door).

I agree, but I don't think having one or two "random" non-permanent walls really accomplishes that. That doesn't make the vault "harder", it just means you have to spend a minute targeting the whole border to find the way in, after you've learned that trick. Doesn't really add to the challenge of the game at all.

[Pete Mack]

I agree, but I don't think having one or two "random" non-permanent walls really accomplishes that. That doesn't make the vault "harder", it just means you have to spend a minute targeting the whole border to find the way in, after you've learned that trick. Doesn't really add to the challenge of the game at all.

Usually the really good stuff requires navigating most of the vault to get at. If the walls were all granite, you could just bore through the nearest wall and swipe the Longsword 4d5. Also, if you have to bore through a lot of rock to reach the entrance, the monsters have a higher chance to wake up before you enter. Finally PASSWALL monsters can't escape through permanent rock. Making the walls granite really would change the game.

[MKula]

What Pete said.

[Rizwan]

Usually the really good stuff requires navigating most of the vault to get at. If the walls were all granite, you could just bore through the nearest wall and swipe the Longsword 4d5. Also, if you have to bore through a lot of rock to reach the entrance, the monsters have a higher chance to wake up before you enter. Finally PASSWALL monsters can't escape through permanent rock. Making the walls granite really would change the game.

What I meant was that the one one granite wall should stand out from the rest of the oerma wall. Not that the perma wall should be totally replaced by granite. I agree that vaults should be difficult to navigate but not frustrating to enter. You should still have all that perma wall so that to get to LongSword4d5 you have to run the gamut of all the nasties that the vault throws at you. Anyway once a first timer knows how to find that one granite wall in all that perma rock it never is a problem any more so in effect highlighting the granite entry point will help in preventing newbie frustration.

[Pete Mack]

What I meant was that the one one granite wall should stand out from the rest of the oerma wall. Not that the perma wall should be totally replaced by granite. I agree that vaults should be difficult to navigate but not frustrating to enter. You should still have all that perma wall so that to get to LongSword4d5 you have to run the gamut of all the nasties that the vault throws at you. Anyway once a first timer knows how to find that one granite wall in all that perma rock it never is a problem any more so in effect highlighting the granite entry point will help in preventing newbie frustration.

Aha, there is a solution for this, too. In 3.0.9 and Unangband, go into the Knowledge menu -- ~ command -- and select "Display feature knowledge."

Navigate to "Walls", with the mouse or the arrow keys, then to "permanent wall." Hit v "interact with visuals." Use the arrow keys or the mouse to change the color of the various permanent walls. You can use 'c'opy and 'p'aste after you have changed the first value to your taste.

When you are done, you can save it to a pref file, using 'save options to pref file' in the options -- '=' -- menu. (If you choose the player's name, it will automatically load those options when you reopen the game.)

[EvilScoop]

at what level can you expect to start seeing such vaults?? I wonder if I have passed one and never knew it was there. Do you use some sort of treasure detection to find them?

thanks
Scoop

[Colbey]

Yes, sorry, my post was unclear. I think the construction of the vaults is fine, but I think the default display of permanent vs. granite is suboptimal, and doesn't meaningfully add to the difficulty of the vault. (Or, in other words, "What Rizwan said".)

[roustk]

at what level can you expect to start seeing such vaults?? I wonder if I have passed one and never knew it was there. Do you use some sort of treasure detection to find them?

Greater vaults can theoretically show up as shallow as 500', but don't expect to find any before about 2000'. A winner might find a handful.

Most kinds of detection will give you a hint that something is there -- all greater vaults are full of monsters and objects, and several have huge numbers of traps. Detect monsters, evil, or objects will reliably show such vaults, and detect traps is fairly good. Magic mapping or enlightenment will show the walls. Detect treasure probably won't work too well, because there is little or no money in vaults.

Kevin