Monster Weaknesses

[dhegler]

I do not follow this as often as I used to, but has their ever been any talk of making certain elements MORE effective on certain monsters, like give a 50% bonus to fire brands and spells on white dragons, or 50% bonus to electrical brands and spells on water-based creatures?

I like the most recent versions of vanilla where slow/sleep/confuse monster spells and items seem to have better effect than they used to. I just always wondered why certain monsters don't have additional weaknesses when their (relative) opposite element/brand is used against them... If they can be immune/resist certain attacks, why not let it go the other way too...

[Derakon]

This is already in the game. Try using a cold attack against a hydra, or a fire attack against a vampire, mummy, or zombie. Search for "HURT_" in monster.txt and monster_base.txt to find monsters with elemental weaknesses.

Currently the only weaknesses appear to be to cold, fire, light, and Stone to Mud, though. And the latter two have been around for ages.

[fizzix]

This is already in the game. Try using a cold attack against a hydra, or a fire attack against a vampire, mummy, or zombie. Search for "HURT_" in monster.txt and monster_base.txt to find monsters with elemental weaknesses.

Currently the only weaknesses appear to be to cold, fire, light, and Stone to Mud, though. And the latter two have been around for ages.

Now that HURT_FIRE and HURT_COLD have been around for a while, I think it might be worthwhile to consider adding more hurt flags. I really like how the hurt flags make keeping fire and cold damage around in order to deal with some tricky monsters (hydras and vampires most importantly). So it adds quite a bit to the inventory management game.

HURT_ACID could be used for golems and creeping coins
HURT_ELEC could be used for the beholders

We could also consider things like.

HURT_BLUNT
HURT_EDGE
HURT_STAB

for blunt weapons, swords and polearms respectively. We could also imagine the reverse. So that jellies could be protected against blunt weapon damage, and skeletons against stab damage.

I should think about this more.

[Quendus]

I've conducted a few ad-hoc bowl experiments and determined that jelly is protected fron stab damage and weak against blunt damage. However, it also gets free attacks when blunt attacks crit.

[Derakon]

HURT_ACID could be used for golems and creeping coins
HURT_ELEC could be used for the beholders

I like these, but I suspect even with HURT_ELEC beholders won't be worth fighting unless you have a lightning-branded weapon or Arrows of Shocking; there just aren't any good spells/wands of ranged lightning damage.

We could also consider things like.

HURT_BLUNT
HURT_EDGE
HURT_STAB

for blunt weapons, swords and polearms respectively. We could also imagine the reverse. So that jellies could be protected against blunt weapon damage, and skeletons against stab damage.

I should think about this more.

This I'm less certain about, because changing your melee damage type requires carrying swap weapons. Currently most characters don't need any swap gear, or if they do it's only one item; if we did this, then all characters that participate in melee would feel some obligation to carry two swap weapons. Also, presumably monsters that are stab-resistant would be protected against arrows and bolts (thematically, doing otherwise doesn't make sense), which is a major problem for rangers.

[fizzix]

I like these, but I suspect even with HURT_ELEC beholders won't be worth fighting unless you have a lightning-branded weapon or Arrows of Shocking; there just aren't any good spells/wands of ranged lightning damage.

Right now I never fight beholders anyway...

Carrying swap items to deal with various enemy types is somewhat interesting (as I've learned from Sil). Also, because of the nature of Angband, there's no need to ensure that all characters can handle all enemies. Rather you choose your gear so that you can handle the largest subset of enemies. (or if you dive... you choose so that you can handle a specific type of enemy very well and then seek them out, avoiding the rest).

[Patashu]

This I'm less certain about, because changing your melee damage type requires carrying swap weapons. Currently most characters don't need any swap gear, or if they do it's only one item; if we did this, then all characters that participate in melee would feel some obligation to carry two swap weapons.

I don't see any problem with this - it makes inventory management a more interesting problem, and makes a large variety of weapons remain interesting longer.

Also, presumably monsters that are stab-resistant would be protected against arrows and bolts (thematically, doing otherwise doesn't make sense), which is a major problem for rangers.

Solution: Buff slings, make slings a viable swap ranged weapon that does blunt
(And then add the ranged weapon that fires bullets that unfold into knives mid flight, for a slashing ranged weapon)

[Derakon]

I don't see any problem with this - it makes inventory management a more interesting problem, and makes a large variety of weapons remain interesting longer.

All I'm saying is that it's qualitatively different from having different elemental vulnerabilities, so we should go into it with our eyes open. Note I said "less certain", not "don't like".

Solution: Buff slings, make slings a viable swap ranged weapon that does blunt

Rangers don't get extra shots with slings, was my ill-explained point.

(And then add the ranged weapon that fires bullets that unfold into knives mid flight, for a slashing ranged weapon)

Maybe broadhead arrows? This is pretty silly realism-wise but is no worse than many other gross inaccuracies in Angband's equipment list.

[Timo Pietilä]

HURT_ELEC could be used for the beholders

HURT_LIGHT for beholders. They are some sort of levitating eyes, right? Bright light should hurt them, maybe cause confusion in progress (actually blind it, but that shows as confusion to outside).

[Therem Harth]

Beholders have eyelids IIRC. And teeth. Lots of teeth.

[Derakon]

HURT_LIGHT for beholders. They are some sort of levitating eyes, right? Bright light should hurt them, maybe cause confusion in progress (actually blind it, but that shows as confusion to outside).

It wouldn't be a big deal for them to have both. The only light-based damage the player has access to is Light Area / Call Light, which does piddly damage, and Spear of Light, which is fixed at 6d8. Neither is ever going to be used seriously against a beholder.

Attaching status ailments to the weakness is an interesting idea, though.

[Bogatyr]

It wouldn't be a big deal for them to have both. The only light-based damage the player has access to is Light Area / Call Light, which does piddly damage, and Spear of Light, which is fixed at 6d8. Neither is ever going to be used seriously against a beholder.

Attaching status ailments to the weakness is an interesting idea, though.

Why not make light deal stronger damage to those susceptible to it, especially against the minions of angband? It seems to make sense...or cause some monsters to be temporarily afraid or stunned. If not regular light, at least give the Phial some effect like that (at least against spiders ... )

[fizzix]

Why not make light deal stronger damage to those susceptible to it, especially against the minions of angband? It seems to make sense...or cause some monsters to be temporarily afraid or stunned. If not regular light, at least give the Phial some effect like that (at least against spiders ... )

Light is strange like hurt rock) in that it doesn't affect monster that don't have HURT_LIGHT at all. Spear of light does no damage to a non-light resistant monster.

[Derakon]

The main problem is that there's only one real light attack spell (Spear of Light), and it's available early and doesn't scale with level. We either need it to scale better, or for there to be a later light-based attack spell that does more damage, for late-game light weaknesses to be relevant.

[Carnivean]

The main problem is that there's only one real light attack spell (Spear of Light), and it's available early and doesn't scale with level. We either need it to scale better, or for there to be a later light-based attack spell that does more damage, for late-game light weaknesses to be relevant.

There is a Starlight staff, so it could simply be a case of duplicating that into mage spell. Or Holy Light for priests.

Of course making light too powerful could unbalance the early game. Worm masses and Snagas are prominent examples of creatures that are hurt by light. You don't want monsters being slaughtered by someone lighting the room.