Question about Weapon Damage

[Mereni]

I've been playing Angband 3.0 off and on for several years now, but I just had the idea to see if there has been any work done on the game and found 3.5. I've liked it so far, but the new way weapon damage is displayed confuses me. I used to just see a 2d4 and figure it's automatically better than 1d4 and that's that. But now I have three weapons I'm looking at and I could use a little help knowing which one is the best.

First, a Tulwar: 2d4 (+3,+5)
1.6 blows per round.
Average damage/round: 28.8

Second, a Dagger: 1d4 (+1,+0)
3.7 blows/round.
Average damage/round: 35.1

Third, a Main Gauche: 1d5 (+0,+0)
3.7 blows/round.
Average damage/round 37


The average damage/round implies that the Main Gauche is the best weapon, followed by Dagger and then Tulwar. I would have thought Tulwar was the best followed by Dagger and then Main Gauche. Completely the opposite.

Is that what I should be looking at when comparing weapons, or is it more complicated, and if so, what should I do to figure out which one to use?

[Derakon]

You get more blows per round with the lighter weapons, so they get to deal their damage more often. That dagger is effectively a 3d4 weapon because you get 3 blows/round (actually slightly better, since you deal nearly 4 blows/round, so over the long haul you'll get the occasional "free" turn in combat).

This effect gets greatly multiplied if the weapon has damage bonuses (the second plus in the (+X, +Y), so your Tulwar has +5 to damage). Be on the lookout for Rings of Damage (or Rings of Reckless Attacks, or Rings of Slaying), which give you damage bonuses without being attached to your weapon.

Eventually your STR and DEX will reach the point that you get lots of blows even with the heavier weapons, at which point lightweight weapons stop being so dominant. However, in the early game, melee characters typically want to stick with the lightest weapon they can find and then stack as much +damage as they can get.

[Mereni]

So, the damage/round is accurate and that Main Gauche really is the best weapon to use right now? I wouldn't have thought it so. o.O

Thank you.

[Timo Pietilä]

So, the damage/round is accurate and that Main Gauche really is the best weapon to use right now? I wouldn't have thought it so. o.O

Thank you.

Note also that high STR affects damage, up to 20 points with 18/220 STR.

Beginner char with multiple blows will get big portion of the damage from STR, and not from equipment.

BTW, for that reason gauntlets of power with +5 to STR and +5 to dam might beat artifact gauntlets. Last three points of effective STR (18/190 -> 18/220) give you 5 points of extra damage. If handwear happens to be Caestus it's up to +8 to dam & that STR bonus (Caestus have base +3 to damage).

So don't abandon checking ego-handwear even with high-end artifact already in possession.

[mrrstark]

Do fractional blows do anything?
e.g. does damage only increase once you go from 1.9 -> 2.0?

[Derakon]

Do fractional blows do anything?
e.g. does damage only increase once you go from 1.9 -> 2.0?

Fractional blows mean you don't spend a full turn's worth of "energy" to attack. Normally every action in the game costs 100 energy; if you have 3.0 blows/round then you attack 3 times and each blow takes 33.333... energy. If you have, say, 3.7 blows/round instead, then each blow takes ~27 energy instead; you make 3 blows and use only 81 energy. Functionally what this means is that against a normal-speed foe, once every 5 turns or so you'll get a free round of attacks -- that is, you attack, then they do nothing, so you get to attack again.

There's one other case where something like this happens. If you have multiple shots per round (e.g. you're using a Light Crossbow of Extra Shots <+1>) then each missile you fire costs 100 / (number of shots per round) energy. So when you start firing missiles, everything around you starts moving in slow motion.

[Mereni]

Okay, so what does the part about 'if you have +1 str and +0 dex, you'll get 3.8 blows per round' (instead of 3.7) mean?

Does it mean that my 18/40 str gives me 2.0 more blows total?

[takkaria]

Okay, so what does the part about 'if you have +1 str and +0 dex, you'll get 3.8 blows per round' (instead of 3.7) mean?

Does it mean that my 18/40 str gives me 2.0 more blows total?

It's telling you that if you found an item or potion that gave you +1 STR, you'd get an extra 0.1 blow per round.

[Timo Pietilä]

Fractional blows mean you don't spend a full turn's worth of "energy" to attack. Normally every action in the game costs 100 energy; if you have 3.0 blows/round then you attack 3 times and each blow takes 33.333... energy. If you have, say, 3.7 blows/round instead, then each blow takes ~27 energy instead;

It also means that if your opponent dies with single strike, you get next turn after using only 27 energy. Makes "swimming" thru breeders and weak group monsters possible. A 6+ blows warrior enters bullet time whenever it is mopping away weak groups.

It's like the whole group of jackals or similar just froze and move only when you actually move and not hit them.

[Mereni]

I feel like I'm still missing something when it comes to weapon damage. I've managed to stay alive now for 39 levels and I've found several artifact weapons, but even though my str is 18/*** and my dex is 18/130, I still can't get as much damage out of a heavy weapon as I can from a small one.

I went from an ego dagger to an artifact short sword to the artifact short sword 'Sting' and all the other artifact weapons I found were very inferior. I just got 'Anduril' and thought surely it would do more damage than 'Sting', but it doesn't. I'm thinking of switching anyway because the other bonuses might make it just a hair better overall, but this is disappointing.

Are any weapons heavier than a short sword ever worth using? It seems kind of a waste if they're not.

[Derakon]

Yes. Get your DEX up. When you inspect weapons, the game should tell you how much you need to improve your stats to get more blows with them.

My melee characters routinely use weapons like the Glaive of Pain, or a Mace of Disruption, or a Scythe of Slicing, to kill Morgoth. Poking him to death with a dagger would take considerably longer.

[Timo Pietilä]

I went from an ego dagger to an artifact short sword to the artifact short sword 'Sting' and all the other artifact weapons I found were very inferior. I just got 'Anduril' and thought surely it would do more damage than 'Sting', but it doesn't.

Sting has two extra blows. If you have lots of off-weapon damage bonuses extra blow weapons are hard to beat (just STR 18/220 and above is +20 to dam). Check extra blow egos. Big-dice extra blow weapons can be better than any artifact.

[Mark]

Check extra blow egos. Big-dice extra blow weapons can be better than any artifact.

When I recently played a priest, I had a Mace with +2 extra blows. Combined with Rings of Damage it felt distinctly (and wonderfully) overpowered. I guess extra blows could typically aid priests the most (early game anyway), who are always going to favour heavier (and blunt) weapons early on due to their typical stats (low dex) + penalties for edged weapons (dagger, etc).

While my priest was naturally at 1 blow/round, a weapon with +2 blows was way better than any slay/brand in the game! (being effectively x3, affects all creatures, and the x3 applies to damage bonuses, not just the dice (2d4))