Things I don't like about current V (long-ish)

[molybdenum]

Plasma -> fire + electricity

Don't forget the ever so wonderful water and ice. These three elements alone have such a weird mess of effects and flags. Water and ice are really only used by uniques and a few high demons and don't really seem to add much.

[MattB]

Water and ice are really only used by uniques and a few high demons and don't really seem to add much.

But what do they take away? They're a nice surprise when you come across them.

(Well, alright, not that nice...)

[debo]

Is water the one that also does acid (equipment-burny) damage for some reason? Yeah sorry, that one is... hrrrm lol

[molybdenum]

But what do they take away? They're a nice surprise when you come across them.

(Well, alright, not that nice...)

No, they don't take away anything, but I was giving more examples in the line of consolidating or removing elements. With those three, specifically, they're a bit obtuse in what they do and how they work:

• Plasma: afflict the player with stunning (which can be prevented with pStun); player cannot resist damage; attacks inventory with fire and electricity (each can be ignored separately if the object does so); some monsters can resist.
• Water: afflict the player with stunning and confusion (which can be prevented with pStun and pConf); player cannot resist damage; does not affect inventory; some monsters are immune. Also, note that water is used in other contexts that aren't related to this element, such as water hounds.
• Ice: afflict the player with stunning and cuts (which can be prevented with pStun and rShards); player can resist or ignore damage with resist or immunity to cold; attacks inventory with cold (which can be ignored due to object flags or immunity to cold); some monsters can be immune or vulnerable.

Personally, I tend to like parallelism in things so that they're a bit easier to learn and keep track of. For example, if plasma was just a high-powered fire attack that can't be resisted and has a chance to stun, I'd like water and ice to be similar high-powered acid attacks with similar behavior. It might be a bit more boring, but that's how I'd have done it. However, it seems that boring things are to go away.

At least with plasma, the player can encounter plasma critters earlier in the dungeon, allowing the effects of the attack to be learned. With water and ice, you don't have a lot of opportunities to figure it out until too late.

[Derakon]

At least with plasma, the player can encounter plasma critters earlier in the dungeon, allowing the effects of the attack to be learned. With water and ice, you don't have a lot of opportunities to figure it out until too late.

Awhile back I suggested adding "vent"-type monsters which would use the '.' graphic, were immobile and fragile, and periodically would breathe an element at you. Fire vents, plasma vents, time vents, etc. Basically you'd have one for each element type the same way you do for hounds and vortices. The idea is basically that they'd go down to an average ranged attack, but if they surprised you they'd hit you with their breath attack and you'd suffer the consequences. Their HP would be low enough that the actual damage from their breath attacks wouldn't be threatening, but you'd learn the side-effects of that element and have appropriate appreciation of the corresponding vortices and hounds.

Personally, I am way, way against cutting down on the number of elements in Angband. They don't add that much complexity to the game and they're a useful way to add one-off interest to special monsters. Time hounds and time vortices are extra-special threats, as are gravity hounds (and Kavlax, who breathes gravity reasonably often). As long as the player has a safe way to learn what the elements do, and as long as we solve the "I didn't know that monster could do that" problem, I say we should have more bizarro elements in the game. Weird elements are great!

[buzzkill]

• Change 7: Player races differ greatly in terms of how they eat.
• Hobbits can eat a lot without going from normal to gorged (so they can eat lots of beneficial food) but quickly fall from normal to hungry (so they need to eat often. Second breakfast!)
• Dwarves can eat a lot without going from normal to gorged (so they can eat lots of beneficial food) but take a very long time to get hungry (they have great endurance to privations)
• Elves very quickly go from normal to gorged (they eat like birds)
• Half-trolls need to eat very often and may not get much benefit from plant-based foods

This is nice. Maybe not differ greatly, but differ. At the very least, a troll should need to eat more that a hobbit , but some of the other stuff might be cool too.

[MattB]

Awhile back I suggested adding "vent"-type monsters which would use the '.' graphic, were immobile and fragile, and periodically would breathe an element at you. Fire vents, plasma vents, time vents, etc. Basically you'd have one for each element type the same way you do for hounds and vortices. The idea is basically that they'd go down to an average ranged attack, but if they surprised you they'd hit you with their breath attack and you'd suffer the consequences. Their HP would be low enough that the actual damage from their breath attacks wouldn't be threatening, but you'd learn the side-effects of that element and have appropriate appreciation of the corresponding vortices and hounds.

Sounds like a brilliant idea, as long as they don't appear too early.

Personally, I am way, way against cutting down on the number of elements in Angband. They don't add that much complexity to the game and they're a useful way to add one-off interest to special monsters. Time hounds and time vortices are extra-special threats, as are gravity hounds (and Kavlax, who breathes gravity reasonably often). As long as the player has a safe way to learn what the elements do, and as long as we solve the "I didn't know that monster could do that" problem, I say we should have more bizarro elements in the game. Weird elements are great!

Agreed. Even though my last three characters, all paladins, have died from (1) Kavlax, (2) gravity hounds and (3) Kavlax and Gravity hounds together. You'd have thought I'd learn...

And I also agree that the 'I didn't know' issue is a problem. I came very close to a 'rage quit' this visit to Angband last year when I got knocked out and killed by plasma hounds. 'Plasma hounds can stun. Huh, who knew'. Glad I didn't quit though.

[MattB]

No, they don't take away anything, but I was giving more examples in the line of consolidating or removing elements. With those three, specifically, they're a bit obtuse in what they do and how they work:

• Plasma: afflict the player with stunning (which can be prevented with pStun); player cannot resist damage; attacks inventory with fire and electricity (each can be ignored separately if the object does so); some monsters can resist.
• Water: afflict the player with stunning and confusion (which can be prevented with pStun and pConf); player cannot resist damage; does not affect inventory; some monsters are immune. Also, note that water is used in other contexts that aren't related to this element, such as water hounds.
• Ice: afflict the player with stunning and cuts (which can be prevented with pStun and rShards); player can resist or ignore damage with resist or immunity to cold; attacks inventory with cold (which can be ignored due to object flags or immunity to cold); some monsters can be immune or vulnerable.

Personally, I tend to like parallelism in things so that they're a bit easier to learn and keep track of. For example, if plasma was just a high-powered fire attack that can't be resisted and has a chance to stun, I'd like water and ice to be similar high-powered acid attacks with similar behavior. It might be a bit more boring, but that's how I'd have done it. However, it seems that boring things are to go away.

At least with plasma, the player can encounter plasma critters earlier in the dungeon, allowing the effects of the attack to be learned. With water and ice, you don't have a lot of opportunities to figure it out until too late.

I like these extra elements, but I take your point. It took a while to learn what plasma actually is. Water doesn't make sense as it is applied to water hounds, water trolls (?!) and a confusion attack from certain uniques. Ice is particularly daft as there is a ring of ice.

Maybe a change in terminology is all that's needed. {Ice} could become {Sandstorm} and {Water} could become {Wind}, or at the very least rename Water Hounds as Acid Hounds (and Water Trolls could become Bog Trolls, or whatever).

[Raxmei]

For summoning, I was going to write a paragraph on that but I forgot. But yes, summoning is a late game problem but it's one with many solutions. A simple one is to have summoned monsters disappear after some amount of time. This alongside with changes that allow the player to face multiple monsters at once greatly reduces summoning's power. Summoning could also take multiple turns.

Reminds me of D&D. In the edition I'm familiar with summon monster spells have a short duration and a full round casting time (monsters appear the turn after you start casting the spell to summon them). There are a couple other interesting differences between D&D and Angband summoning.

Summoned monsters are incapable of summoning more monsters. This neatly prevents the endless flood of greater demons summoning more of themselves.

Summoned monsters yield no treasure nor experience. They're treated as spell effects, not monsters in their own right, so you don't get a reward for an enemy's summon monster spell any more than you would for their fireball spell. This ensures that summoning is still something that the player would rather not have happen because fighting it out with them is a waste of player resources.

[molybdenum]

I like these extra elements, but I take your point. It took a while to learn what plasma actually is. Water doesn't make sense as it is applied to water hounds, water trolls (?!) and a confusion attack from certain uniques. Ice is particularly daft as there is a ring of ice.

Maybe a change in terminology is all that's needed. {Ice} could become {Sandstorm} and {Water} could become {Wind}, or at the very least rename Water Hounds as Acid Hounds (and Water Trolls could become Bog Trolls, or whatever).

For sure. To be clear, I don't mind having a lot of elements either; I guess I just prefer a certain sort of consistency. I do like the vents idea as well.

Thinking about elements had made me want to create a Great Wyrm of Construction that breathes rock killer and doors.

[Derakon]

Sounds like a brilliant idea, as long as they don't appear too early.

The thinking was that you'd usually see the vent of a given element before you'd see the vortex, and the vortex before the hound. Vents also wouldn't need to be especially common monsters since they're mostly "educational" instead of actively threatening.

[AnonymousHero]

Reminds me of D&D. In the edition I'm familiar with summon monster spells have a short duration and a full round casting time (monsters appear the turn after you start casting the spell to summon them). There are a couple other interesting differences between D&D and Angband summoning.

Summoned monsters are incapable of summoning more monsters. This neatly prevents the endless flood of greater demons summoning more of themselves.

Summoned monsters yield no treasure nor experience. They're treated as spell effects, not monsters in their own right, so you don't get a reward for an enemy's summon monster spell any more than you would for their fireball spell. This ensures that summoning is still something that the player would rather not have happen because fighting it out with them is a waste of player resources.

Except if they're gated in which case you're basically in Angband-summoning mode, right?

(I've played too much BG2-AD&D.)

Still, point taken: If chain-summoning were banned or prevented the summoning would be way less dangerous (and wouldn't require TeleAway+Destruction nearly as regularly). I'd vote for changing this (even in 3.5!) just to see what happens to gameplay!

EDIT: Spellink

[debo]

As dumb as it is, I've always found it kind of fun when some gruntling summons a greater monster who summons the witch-king of angmar It's sort of exciting. Way more fun than hounds, that's for sure.

[Zireael]

My three copper pieces:
1) I like the proposed hunger changes
2) I like the increased benefits from light & making basic light permanent
3) I like the idea of vent monsters and teaching the player about damage types

I like these extra elements, but I take your point. It took a while to learn what plasma actually is. Water doesn't make sense as it is applied to water hounds, water trolls (?!) and a confusion attack from certain uniques. Ice is particularly daft as there is a ring of ice.

Maybe a change in terminology is all that's needed. {Ice} could become {Sandstorm} and {Water} could become {Wind}, or at the very least rename Water Hounds as Acid Hounds (and Water Trolls could become Bog Trolls, or whatever).

Sounds sorely needed.

4) I'd like the chain summoning effect to be restricted a bit

[Derakon]

Aren't summoners vastly depowered in current Vanilla anyway? Something about them only being able to pull monsters of roughly equal power to themselves?