Tears unnumbered ye shall shed

[Nick]

Thanks for continuing to discuss, everyone. I don't have much to say for now, except

1. There's a fair bit of reading between the lines going on. What you think (or hope or are afraid) I mean isn't necessarily what I mean;
2. Don't put too much stock in what I actually said either.

And remember that there's a massive code restructure to happen before any gameplay changes.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

PLEASE dont have Mist style design decisions in Vanilla. Don't have mist creatures, forced descend is too rough imo too.

Halls of Mist is a game without possibilities for grinding. Your success depends purely on your tactical/strategic decisions and luck.

I've been mostly saying that "Mist's mechanisms are not suitable for Vanilla". This is the main reason. Only now that Nick seems to be going downwards-only, I started suggesting that something like my mechanics might work.

I don't honestly see the point of downwards-only unless you also remove all possibilities for grinding, which means adding or altering lots of game mechanics. Currently grinding in Angband is fun because you can grind whole dungeon levels, as difficult as you like. If you remove that option, the player is forced to grind in more boring ways. (Like clearing levels that are too easy for you, waiting for wandering monsters, worm-farming, retrying the same difficult fight for the hundredth time until you get lucky because there is no real clock in the game, etc.)

I think Mist's stair system or a similar system that allows setting your own difficulty level (a bit like in current Vanilla) would be more fun than a straight forced descent. Sil's system is cool.

[AnonymousHero]

I think it's time to outline my current vision for how I want Angband to look in the longer term. (CUT)

I don't necessarily agree with everything here, but FECK YEA! Let's mix things up! Mutate!

[Magnate]

Thanks for putting this list out for comments.

Forced descent will be the default option. As a consequence, in a standard game there will be no more than 99 levels generated before you meet Morgoth.

Interesting. I'm ambivalent about this. Since it's already an option, simply making it the default is a big-but-not-irrevocable change. Same as it would be if you made no-selling the default - people who don't like either can change them back. Once you start adding hunter monsters etc., it's much harder to preserve the option of unforced descent, so it bumps into your inclusiveness tradition (not to mention being more work).

The dungeon may be shortened.

I think I'm with PowerWyrm on this one - I'd rather see the end of the dungeon made more interesting. ISTR saying the same several years ago when takkaria was toying with a shorter dungeon, so I feel consistent at least.

Some fights will be dangerous, and require the player to escape or die.

Like other respondents, I'm interested in how you see this varying from what we have now (severely OOD monsters).

Some fights and/or traps will result in the player being effectively crippled, and needing to return to town to recover properly.

Again, I'm ambivalent. I don't mind this per se, but I really don't like "random bad thing happens" mechanics without an upside. One of my all-time favourite games (Master Of Orion) had random events, 95% of which were bad, so I just turned them off. If only 50% had been bad, I'd have enjoyed them and had a better game. So if traps are going to get worse, I'd like to see more positive features too (shrines, wandering healers, whatever). Or, if that's too variant-y, just a much more sophisticated and rewarding detection system (where you can optimise for perception and there's no detection magic or whatever).

Ironman will be very hard to win.

You mean it's not already? (A later reply hints that you mean simply the final fight(s) - as others have said the early game is already very hard.)

The town will be primarily a place to recover rather than restock.

Yep, like this a lot. I reckon we could make the town a lot more interesting, yet still remove almost every "necessary" item. Services (NPP), ordering stuff (FA), investing in stores so they get better stuff you haven't ordered (Sangband), etc.

Every object will be useful to some character at some time; very few will be useful to any character all the time.

This was always my wish too, so I'm really pleased to see it on your list. I've had several ideas in this space which I'll bore people with over time. I guess this is another confirmation that item balance comes right at the very end, after all the decisions about races and classes, combat, dungeon mechanics etc. etc. Ho hum.

Achieving game balance while doing all this will be challenging, and at times the game will be unbalanced; at these times, I would rather err on the side of being too hard than too easy.

I think this comes back to your release policy. Releasing an explicitly declared alpha version that is testing some definitely unbalanced feature should be easier for the community to deal with than random barely-tested changes.

Where there is a choice of possible development paths to take (combat system is a prime example here), I would like to actually implement multiple possibilities for people to test and compare. That way I have informed feedback to ignore

I look forward to seeing how achievable this is. If you mean releasing different versions for testing, git of course allows us to release versions from different branches easily - but we'd need to freeze out other changes for long enough to get proper comparisons. If you mean releasing versions with options for different (e.g.) combat systems, that sounds like a lot more hassle.

[emulord]

PLEASE dont have Mist style design decisions in Vanilla. Don't have mist creatures, forced descend is too rough imo too.

If anything, make wandering monsters start being higher and higher level if the level is static'ed too long, with the level feeling worsening over time. Hunter monsters sounds lame, because its meta to wait around just to fight them. (You know players will)

Diseases are game ruining. It boils down to "carry mushrooms of cure disease" or "Oh crap, time to suicide". Drains over time are not a fun mechanic. Immediate drains with slow recovery is much more fun. It makes the current fight dangerous without ruining your character's midterm success.

Without changing the game much, you can probably decrease number of levels to about 80. The final levels will be bristling with uniques until you tame it down. I think that sounds more exciting.

I still like 99 stacks. 40 might be balanced, but its fun feeling "maxxed out"
I also still like selling. 3x gold for nosell is insane and dumb. go to 400', mine everything :P, buy things from blackmarket. Late game. Kill hydra, too much $

If you want to remove pointless spellbooks, have spell books be destroyable for EXP (or sellable for $)

People complain about vanilla being "boring", but its a game of risk management. Winning is an achievement because its a test of patience and wise careful play. Vanilla should be always winnable from the starting position. This is part of the game design. Forced descent can make you feel "behind" and never be able to catch up, running away from everything until you die. This is fine in a Ironman mode, but as part of the basic game im not sure.

[Philip]

Hunter-killer ringwraith squads would be fun.

Also, I keep rementioning this, but one idea I liked some time ago was Anxiety. To keep it short, Anxiety would replace level feelings, but regionally. For a sector given by your perception, or something, you would have a general idea of how dangerous the area is. It would not be dependable, with accuracy depending on perception, or whatever else would be used. I think object quality could also be included there. Outlined in detail here. OTOH you could just make the entire dungeon super scary and it wouldn't matter anymore.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Why though? Grinding the first bunch of monsters that turn up after a while will just hasten the appearance of the worst-than-Morgoth monsters that appear later on (and you really wouldn't want to wait for the ones after that).

That works, too.

Edit: It might still be optimal to grind monsters for a while, though, near stairs. When dungeon levels are a limited resource, grinding wandering monsters becomes valuable.

Edit 2: Of course everything works well with your hunter-monsters that start appearing after a certain length of time has passed, regardless of dungeon level.

[TJS]

Yes, it works very well, but only if wandering monsters give you no experience or loot. That's how mist phantasms work in my variant.

Why though? Grinding the first bunch of monsters that turn up after a while will just hasten the appearance of the worst-than-Morgoth monsters that appear later on (and you really wouldn't want to wait for the ones after that).

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Also the longer you spend on a particular level the more likely monsters drift in from the edges of the map. Very dangerous monsters such as ancient dragons will sense you and wake up to investigate instead of sleeping and other monsters appear at the stairways to scout the level.

It would also do something to combat another problem I find with the game, the fact that resting is such as easy option with hardly any downside

Yes, it works very well, but only if wandering monsters give you no experience or loot. That's how mist phantasms work in my variant.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

If critical hits from monsters caused some sort of permanent damage, you would want to avoid unnecessary grinding, and dive fast instead.

[TJS]

That's a really interesting idea. And who knows, forced descent may not end up being the best option, but it looks pretty reasonable to me at the moment.

I think there could be several of these timers that affect the game in this way. The longer the game goes on the more of these other monsters appear at earlier levels gradually making their way down. Also it will mean monsters will be more aware that there is an intruder and they will become more alert in general on all dungeon levels.

Also the longer you spend on a particular level the more likely monsters drift in from the edges of the map. Very dangerous monsters such as ancient dragons will sense you and wake up to investigate instead of sleeping and other monsters appear at the stairways to scout the level.

It would also do something to combat another problem I find with the game, the fact that resting is such as easy option with hardly any downside.

Before descending a level I always rest on the stairs to full health/mana. If the extra turns add to a danger on that level, but also subsequent ones then you are trading safety now for safety later when resting. You might decide to use up !CLW on early levels instead of resting to save time to make the game easier later on.

It would also mean there is a downside to the spells in Tensers as you would need to wait to regain mana before branding or enchanting items.

Resting should be something that you use tactically when necessary rather than something you automatically do after each fight.

As an aside going up/down stairs could take up time, so continually using them will move the timer on significantly.

imo at least one of those monsters should be this guy: http://www.giantbomb.com/baron-von-blubba/3005-10958/

[PowerWyrm]

My remarks here:

1. Forced descent will be the default option

Sure, just turn it on by default in the option menu. Just don't remove the option of playing normally though so people can still play at their own pace if they want.

2. The dungeon may be shortened

I don't like that. I feel that the game design (objects/monsters) was made for 100 levels. Using a shorter dungeon seems to me like variant stuff. The only problem here is that the last 20 levels don't see any new critters except for uniques. I fixed that in my variant by adding new endgame monsters which make the endgame much more difficult (mainly more dangerous Wyrms which act like a mini-Glaurung or mini-Ancalagon).

I don't agree that the Sauron/Morgoth fights are hard. If you need to scum for consumables/gear, you're probably doing something wrong. This brings us back to point 1: playing with forced descent is a good way to learn how to manage gear/consumables. In my variant, I've fixed the problem by adding a new Black market, which carries better items for very high prices and where you can order items like in FA.

Note that I may sound here like the game is too easy. Maybe it is and the endgame should be made harder, not easier. After all, Angband is derived from Moria, in which it was almost impossible to win...

3. Individual dungeon levels will be more interesting

Having tested 3.5 with a large window in ascii mode, I can tell you that dungeon levels are now really interesting. They don't feel too big or dull, thanks to all the new rooms and vaults, new friends/escorts, caves, labyrinths...

4. Some fights will be dangerous, and require the player to escape or die

Isn't that already the case (summons, spell/breath damage vs player hp...)? How would you make fights more dangerous?

5. Some fights and/or traps will result in the player being effectively crippled, and needing to return to town to recover properly

And what if you play ironman? In that case, you should have the ability to recover in the dungeon.

About fights, it seems like the best way to "cripple" a player is to add "player" curses/diseases. Currently, you can have your stats or xp drained, but it's a one-time effect. Player "curses" would make the player randomly teleport, having monsters summoned on him... Diseases would make the player constantly lose xp and stats (drain and permanent)... But then you'd have to think carefully on how they can be cured (town service, items).

I also think there aren't enough traps in V... but as always adding new traps should not imbalance the game.

6. Ironman will be very hard to win

Yes, probably something needs to be done about ironman. I've played ironman characters before and, except the fact that you need to explore levels thoroughly and manage your backpack carefully, the endgame is pretty much the same as a normal game. The difficulty is mainly surviving the early levels without supplies. But here I've no idea how to spice up things in ironman without adding artificial difficulties...

7. The town will be primarily a place to recover rather than restock

The current behavior of the town sounds fair to me. I don't see why it should be changed. Different classes have different needs for supplies, and not allowing for example the town to restock on cure potions would greatly imbalance the game as fighters would struggle to heal themselves while priests could do it easily with praying.

8. Every object will be useful to some character at some time; very few will be useful to any character all the time

Balancing objects would be nice. For example, books are only useful for specific classes.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Dealing with supply of consumables is actually quite a difficult problem. Currently the chief ones are pretty much on tap, which is good in some respects and bad in others. I tend to favour fairly plentiful means of escape, but I'm not a big fan of easy access to lots of effective healing. I don't have good answers here, and I suspect it's going to take a lot of tricky balancing.

I struggled with the balance myself.

You can't just go hunting for consumables in a downwards-only game. I found it too cruel if after you used up all your resources in a tough fight and lost, you would have no vital resources at all on the next dungeon level.

Currently Mist has some "proficiencies" (Escape, Recover, and Identify) that refresh each dungeon level.

I also added terrain features that give the player chances to escape tough situations without using consumables.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Random drops result in characters with wildly different power level. Finding an early artifact is fun, but it's much less fun if you need to clear countless too easy levels as a result.

Edit: Of course you wouldn't need to clear those levels, but it would probably be optimal to do so. Making suboptimal decisions makes me feel bad.

[debo]

A solution I thought of a while ago would be that dangerous monsters drift into shallower levels after a certain length of time. These would be different from just deeper monsters, but specific "hunter" type monsters that are alerted to the player's presence by their time spent in the dungeon.

imo at least one of those monsters should be this guy: http://www.giantbomb.com/baron-von-blubba/3005-10958/