New vision for Angband - Part 1

[debo]

Sounds interesting. I don't suppose you have the link to the article?

Here you go: http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=5698

[TJS]

I would be happy if those work in progress -features get finished and few very old things improved:

1) ID by use properly implemented (rune-based)
2) magical trap detection removed, with changes in traps themselves (LoS detection, make those searching amulets useful again)

(IE: all those "press this button to make it go away, routines removed)

3) Curses reimplemented with a bit more imagination than just sticky ones.

Then rest can be fine-tuning and rebalancing. Angband doesn't need "fast development" because it isn't really broken.

Well it sounds like we agree on the idea that some things are not ideal and need improving, just not on the number and scope.

I agree with the points on your list though.

Let's imagine that the things that you want to see changed get done and then you have the option of 1) Angband never gets developed further and begins a slow slide into irrelevance or 2) It has more development you personally wouldn't consider changing. Which would you choose?

Regarding curses I always think that applying them to equipment is the wrong way to handle it and it should instead apply to the @ himself. A interesting idea might be to tie it to the enchanment changes I proposed above and then allow them to remove curses on the player as well as enchant items.

[Timo Pietilä]

What are your thoughts on redeveloping Angband quite radically? I imagine you'd probably rather it stayed pretty much how as it is at the moment.

I would be happy if those work in progress -features get finished and few very old things improved:

1) ID by use properly implemented (rune-based)
2) magical trap detection removed, with changes in traps themselves (LoS detection, make those searching amulets useful again)

(IE: all those "press this button to make it go away, routines removed)

3) Curses reimplemented with a bit more imagination than just sticky ones.

Then rest can be fine-tuning and rebalancing. Angband doesn't need "fast development" because it isn't really broken.

[TJS]

FWIW I tried and hated Sil. It has good UI and some interesting features, but as a game it sucks IMO. It's not angband. Too different for direct comparison.

Yes that's what I thought (although I do actually like it quite a lot). It has removed levelling up, magic, escapes, most of the elements, a lot of effects and has added assigning skill points and ability trees and relies on forging rather than finding items.

What are your thoughts on redeveloping Angband quite radically? I imagine you'd probably rather it stayed pretty much how as it is at the moment.

[TJS]

Love the idea of merging enchant scrolls and expanding their use to amulets and sticks - this will make the use of an enchant scroll an actual strategic decision, as opposed to just "use it now, or wait for a better applicable item to use it on"!

Hooray someone likes one of the ideas and as far as I know it's not in Sil either.

Brogue does this quite well- the scrolls can be used on almost anything, and usually have at least 2 effects (increase in the bonus plus increase chance of the ego effect plus decrease in strength requirement for weapons, increase in bonus, max charges, for staves, etc). They are also a way to break a sticky curse. Definitely a resource you want to use carefully.

Ah balls it's in Brogue instead. Sounds interesting the way you can use it on magic devices as well. Can't say I'm a fan of reducing the weight requirement of items though, it sounds a bit too gamey. I'll have to give Brogue a go sometime though.

IMO a clean break in development sounds like a good idea.

Interesting how these days everyone thinks Angband is a bit of a dead dog, whereas a couple of years ago development was motoring along very quickly. What changed exactly?

I think it is worth exploring the option of updating Angband though even if ultimately it is probably best to start fresh on a new project.

[Timo Pietilä]

Two totally different games IMO.

Are Angband veterans getting a bit of a inferiority complex about Sil or something .

FWIW I tried and hated Sil. It has good UI and some interesting features, but as a game it sucks IMO. It's not angband. Too different for direct comparison.

[TJS]

Scatha has written at some length about how Sil's system could be extended to a longer game. An Angband-length variant using modified Sil mechanics could be interesting...

Sounds interesting. I don't suppose you have the link to the article?

[TJS]

I basically agree with you about what could/should be changed, but Sil has done so much of it you'd probably be better off starting from Sil than starting from V.

Well it was really just the first four points off a much longer list.

I haven't played more than a couple of hours of Sil, so don't really know how it works very well. As far as I can see there's a lot of Angband mechanics missing such as spells, detect, magic devices etc. (unless they are introduced later on as I've not got very far at all). Even if all the most obvious changes desirable to Angband are already done well in Sil then isn't that a good reason to adopt some of those changes?

Could you expand more on why it would be better starting from Sil?

I think it wouldn't be a bad outcome if V itself stopped moving and fossilised, like Moria did years ago, with variants continuing.

Noooo. How come? Is it because the codebase is old? Or the community doesn't want the change? Or the design is a bit of an evolutionary dead end?

Or is it like when Roger Waters left Pink Floyd and didn't want the others to continue to use the name?

[Mikko Lehtinen]

The whole searching mechanic is a waste of time.

Also Halls of Mist solved this. Perception is super-important in Mist, in a myriad of ways (read the documentation about the Perception skill).

You never need to hit the 's' key. Perception is always a pure percentage chance, and you only get one chance to find anything.

Traps only exist in rooms with closets and around some monsters.

[bio_hazard]

Love the idea of merging enchant scrolls and expanding their use to amulets and sticks - this will make the use of an enchant scroll an actual strategic decision, as opposed to just "use it now, or wait for a better applicable item to use it on"!

Brogue does this quite well- the scrolls can be used on almost anything, and usually have at least 2 effects (increase in the bonus plus increase chance of the ego effect plus decrease in strength requirement for weapons, increase in bonus, max charges, for staves, etc). They are also a way to break a sticky curse. Definitely a resource you want to use carefully.

IMO a clean break in development sounds like a good idea.

[ekolis]

Love the idea of merging enchant scrolls and expanding their use to amulets and sticks - this will make the use of an enchant scroll an actual strategic decision, as opposed to just "use it now, or wait for a better applicable item to use it on"!

[debo]

Scatha has written at some length about how Sil's system could be extended to a longer game. An Angband-length variant using modified Sil mechanics could be interesting...

[takkaria]

Well I was hoping to provoke a bit more discussion than just "your ideas are (or might) be a bit like Sil".

As far as I know Sil doesn't have magical enchantments, teleportation or rings of escaping. In fact does it even have different speeds?

Two totally different games IMO.

Are Angband veterans getting a bit of a inferiority complex about Sil or something

I probably should have started with points that couldn't possibly be compared to Sil in any way.

I basically agree with you about what could/should be changed, but Sil has done so much of it you'd probably be better off starting from Sil than starting from V. I think it wouldn't be a bad outcome if V itself stopped moving and fossilised, like Moria did years ago, with variants continuing.

[TJS]

Well I was hoping to provoke a bit more discussion than just "your ideas are (or might) be a bit like Sil".

As far as I know Sil doesn't have magical enchantments, teleportation or rings of escaping. In fact does it even have different speeds?

Two totally different games IMO.

Are Angband veterans getting a bit of a inferiority complex about Sil or something

I probably should have started with points that couldn't possibly be compared to Sil in any way.

[Philip]

Essentially, yes, every single issue he has has been solved in Sil, usually in the exact way he is suggesting.