New vision for Angband - Part 1

[Timo Pietilä]

What are your thoughts on redeveloping Angband quite radically? I imagine you'd probably rather it stayed pretty much how as it is at the moment.

I would be happy if those work in progress -features get finished and few very old things improved:

1) ID by use properly implemented (rune-based)
2) magical trap detection removed, with changes in traps themselves (LoS detection, make those searching amulets useful again)

(IE: all those "press this button to make it go away, routines removed)

3) Curses reimplemented with a bit more imagination than just sticky ones.

Then rest can be fine-tuning and rebalancing. Angband doesn't need "fast development" because it isn't really broken.

[TJS]

I would be happy if those work in progress -features get finished and few very old things improved:

1) ID by use properly implemented (rune-based)
2) magical trap detection removed, with changes in traps themselves (LoS detection, make those searching amulets useful again)

(IE: all those "press this button to make it go away, routines removed)

3) Curses reimplemented with a bit more imagination than just sticky ones.

Then rest can be fine-tuning and rebalancing. Angband doesn't need "fast development" because it isn't really broken.

Well it sounds like we agree on the idea that some things are not ideal and need improving, just not on the number and scope.

I agree with the points on your list though.

Let's imagine that the things that you want to see changed get done and then you have the option of 1) Angband never gets developed further and begins a slow slide into irrelevance or 2) It has more development you personally wouldn't consider changing. Which would you choose?

Regarding curses I always think that applying them to equipment is the wrong way to handle it and it should instead apply to the @ himself. A interesting idea might be to tie it to the enchanment changes I proposed above and then allow them to remove curses on the player as well as enchant items.

[debo]

Sounds interesting. I don't suppose you have the link to the article?

Here you go: http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=5698

[MattB]

The numbers are too big and too meaningless.

I agree that the opacity is undesirable, but I have no problem with the numbers getting bigger and bigger through the game - it makes me feel like I'm getting somewhere.

Enchantments are boring.

Yes, I completely agree.

The whole searching mechanic is a waste of time.

I disagree. Searching is really annoying, so one of the first steps you take, and one of the first achievements you make, on the road to deMorgothing Angband is making sure your @ doesn't have to do it. Like making sure @ can forget about renewing light sources. This is a good thing, in my opinion.

Simplify rules that inexplicably don't apply sometimes as people don't like one aspect of the emergent gameplay that results.

Yep, with you there.

Well this is controversial, but here we go. Speed is broken.

I don't think it's broken, I think it works as it is. It is perhaps...unsubtle. I wouldn't object to seeing it improved, but I quite like it now.


There you go - there's my tuppence-worth.

Keep up the debate!

[TJS]

Also Halls of Mist solved this. Perception is super-important in Mist, in a myriad of ways (read the documentation about the Perception skill).

You never need to hit the 's' key. Perception is always a pure percentage chance, and you only get one chance to find anything.

Traps only exist in rooms with closets and around some monsters.

Sounds like a good idea to me, I definitely think that the "search" command should be removed. I might have to have a bash on Halls of Mist as it goes.

Here you go: http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=5698

Thanks I'll have a butchers at that.

I agree that the opacity is undesirable, but I have no problem with the numbers getting bigger and bigger through the game - it makes me feel like I'm getting somewhere.

I agree you get that feeling of power escalation as the numbers go up which is good (one of the reasons grindfests like WOW have been so popular), but I think you can still get that feeling when +3 AC goes to +7, instead of +138 going to +201. No one would argue with a straight face to multiply all numbers by ten to increase the satisfaction of gaining more numbers.

I don't think it's broken, I think it works as it is. It is perhaps...unsubtle. I wouldn't object to seeing it improved, but I quite like it now.

I quite like the way it is now too, there's nothing like getting your first (non-nerfed) speed boost or finally getting to +10 unhasted speed. But I think speed really upsets the overall balance of the game as it is currently. The difficulty changes completely upon your first big speed find.

When you're at irregular speeds like +7 or so it makes combat (especially ranged) feel a bit haphazrd as well.

[fizzix]

@Numbers:

I mostly agree. I didn't like the inflation of numbers in v4. But I also think the coarseness in Sil is too much. I think a range of 30 or so is a pretty good range for basic stats and abilities.

One of the problems is that the more complex combat is the more opaque it is. And the more simple it is, the more boring it is. Sil's combat is not simple at all, Angband's is actually simpler. Sil has smaller numbers though.

Scaling the numbers is a very large project and would need someone super-devoted to it. I would support it though. It might be better working from Sil upwards than Angband downwards, honestly.

@Enchantments

This is a problem. But it's honestly solvable with number modification. If each enchantment scroll instead gave +1d4 it would be a bit better.

@Searching

Personally Angband has things a bit inverted from what I like. I feel like the early levels should have a high danger factor but also high knowledge. Perhaps the entire dungeon gets mapped out, or at very least perma-lit. Later levels should have a (relatively) lower danger factor to compensate for the lack of knowledge. Instead you get ESP at the end and many of the monsters can take ~50% of your health in a single round. This is a bit of an aside though.

There was an effort to fix traps. I think detect doors and stairs should go, or at least be a higher level wizard/rogue spell. But this also require dungeon creation to at least allow a path from starting location to a stairwell without hidden doors. In actuality I'd like hidden doors to only exist in entrances to special rooms, and to not be diggable, or openable by monsters. That combined with the removal of the spells seems like a big plus.

@ Rule simplification

This is one of those things that's great in idea but hard in practice. You might want to specify exactly which rules should be changed, and possibly submit them as bugs.

@ Speed

Over the past couple of years, I've come to the conclusion that the speed you get as a stat should be movement speed only. Attack speed should be a completely different beast, and a lot harder to modify. Again, this requires massive rebalancing.

[chris]

Well this is controversial, but here we go. Speed is broken.

It completely and utterly changes the game going from hard at 0 speed to very easy at +10 speed and beyond. I've argued before that I would rather a +10 speed equipment boost at the beginning of the game than have a permanent +10 to all my other stats. +10 speed doubles the rate of all of your actions, so that means double damage dealt, chances to escape, running speed, tunneling, healing etc. It also effectively doubles your stealth too. If any item doubled just say melee damage then it would be removed due to being overpowered. Ditto with any of the other abilities.

Granted, I don't play Vanilla much, but I think that the Bestiary could use some work. Instead of specifying monster speed in +10 increments, one could smooth out monster speeds (e.g., +0 then +5 then +10, etc.).

The gap from +0 to +10 is too significant, but would be less so if monsters gradually transitioned from "Normal" to "Fast".

[Timo Pietilä]

Let's imagine that the things that you want to see changed get done and then you have the option of 1) Angband never gets developed further and begins a slow slide into irrelevance or 2) It has more development you personally wouldn't consider changing. Which would you choose?

Depends of the things I wouldn't consider changing. I can't answer that.

[buzzkill]

I'll have to give Brogue a go sometime though.

Don't do it . Brogue is a tight, well-balanced, enjoyable game. Playing Brogue leads to more playing of Brogue, which makes a return to the beloved dungeons of Angband feel somehow empty.

[Timo Pietilä]

@ Speed

Over the past couple of years, I've come to the conclusion that the speed you get as a stat should be movement speed only. Attack speed should be a completely different beast, and a lot harder to modify. Again, this requires massive rebalancing.

I picture speed as time bubble around you. You don't see yourself faster, but rather everything else is slower. This should in fact count everything that affects you, even your regeneration rate. That said, I think speed is now too easy to get. There are no hard choices to make because you get to your desired speed too easily without really sacrificing anything.

Speed is powerful, but that doesn't make it broken. Maybe just too common.

[TJS]

@Numbers:

I mostly agree. I didn't like the inflation of numbers in v4. But I also think the coarseness in Sil is too much. I think a range of 30 or so is a pretty good range for basic stats and abilities.

Sounds good to me. I think 30 sounds about right for a game as long as Angband. Actually I wasn't really suggesting copying Sil exactly (or at all to be honest).

One of the problems is that the more complex combat is the more opaque it is. And the more simple it is, the more boring it is.

Interesting. Care to expand on that?

Sil's combat is not simple at all, Angband's is actually simpler. Sil has smaller numbers though.

I don't really know exactly how the combat works in Sil. I read the Sil manual last night since everyone seems to be referencing it. Things like hitting something seem very simple with just a to-hit value against an evasion value with a 1d20 roll added to both. Angband's calculation is a lot more complex if I recall correctly.

By the way what happened with the ideas about splitting AC into evasion and absorbtion a while ago? (yes yes I know this is in Sil).

Scaling the numbers is a very large project and would need someone super-devoted to it. I would support it though.

I can imagine there's a lot to it. Any hints on what would need to be done?

It might be better working from Sil upwards than Angband downwards, honestly.

Wouldn't you need to add all the magic systems and missing objects, weapons first though? And add a load of extra weapon types which would need rebalancing anyway.

@Enchantments

This is a problem. But it's honestly solvable with number modification. If each enchantment scroll instead gave +1d4 it would be a bit better.

That was my initial thought about enchantments too and it would make them more stategically interesting.

@Searching

Personally Angband has things a bit inverted from what I like. I feel like the early levels should have a high danger factor but also high knowledge. Perhaps the entire dungeon gets mapped out, or at very least perma-lit. Later levels should have a (relatively) lower danger factor to compensate for the lack of knowledge. Instead you get ESP at the end and many of the monsters can take ~50% of your health in a single round. This is a bit of an aside though.

Agreed with the knowledge differences, although I'm not sure what the answer is. I would be against the game rules being fudged with some early dungeons getting mapped out and lit beforehand though (this is a good example of the type of exception to the game rules I was talking about before).

One of my main problems with the id mini-game is along these lines in that it is front loaded to the first 20% of the game. You start out knowing the id of nothing and by the end know what all the flavours are and have access to id for everything else. Ideally it would be evenly spread through the game, but I can't see how that could actually be possible.

There was an effort to fix traps. I think detect doors and stairs should go, or at least be a higher level wizard/rogue spell. But this also require dungeon creation to at least allow a path from starting location to a stairwell without hidden doors. In actuality I'd like hidden doors to only exist in entrances to special rooms, and to not be diggable, or openable by monsters. That combined with the removal of the spells seems like a big plus.

Pretty much agree with all of this.

@ Speed

Over the past couple of years, I've come to the conclusion that the speed you get as a stat should be movement speed only. Attack speed should be a completely different beast, and a lot harder to modify. Again, this requires massive rebalancing.

When you say movement do you mean actually moving the @ around the map or do you include other actions such as drinking potions? I'm not sure I like the idea of different actions taking up different amount of time (another example of the kind of rule fudging I was referencing earlier).

[TJS]

Granted, I don't play Vanilla much, but I think that the Bestiary could use some work. Instead of specifying monster speed in +10 increments, one could smooth out monster speeds (e.g., +0 then +5 then +10, etc.).

The gap from +0 to +10 is too significant, but would be less so if monsters gradually transitioned from "Normal" to "Fast".

I think this would add a lot of extra complexity when trying to play the game. If you have 5 different monsters with different speeds in a room it would be difficult to predict when each monster would move.

[Derakon]

When fizzix said that Sil combat is complex compared to Angband combat, he didn't mean in terms of the formulae used but rather in terms of how much thought the player puts into the game. Angband throws a lot of numbers around, but the combat boils down to "get into a 1-on-1 fight with as few other monsters in LOS as possible". The numbers may determine your success but they don't determine your tactics.

I don't have a problem with front-loading the ID game. As the player learns what more and more of the items are, the value of seeking out an un-identified item becomes potentially higher and higher. That un-ID'd ring is likely to be an artifact if you've seen practically every non-artifact ring flavor. That un-ID'd scroll is probably *Acquirement* or Mass Banishment or etc. We want to encourage the player to stick their necks out and get into troublesome situations, and un-ID'd items are a convenient way to do so. Especially when the ring turns out to just be a Ring of Lightning.

There's a lot to be said for having monster speed be a convenient multiplier of player speed (at least as long as player speed is predictable, i.e. +0); it makes combat more predictable which in turn allows the player more ability to plan out turns in advance. If you don't know how many turns a monster is going to get before you take your next turn, then you have to play much more cautiously (c.f. Chengband).

[chris]

It makes combat more predictable which in turn allows the player more ability to plan out turns in advance. If you don't know how many turns a monster is going to get before you take your next turn, then you have to play much more cautiously (c.f. Chengband).

I think this would add a lot of extra complexity when trying to play the game. If you have 5 different monsters with different speeds in a room it would be difficult to predict when each monster would move.

Predictability in the speed system is a huge game design flaw, in my opinion. It leads to munchkin outcomes like pillar dancing of yore.

But this is just my opinion, of course, and illustrates the problem with the premise of this thread: Different players enjoy different types of games!

[Derakon]

You can fix pillardancing (and hack'n'back, etc.) by making the enemies smarter, as NPP et al have done.