Archer class

[Estie]

There was a discussion in some other thread (and off-topic to that thread) about archery being a class defining skill or just support.

I started a ranger, trying to use archery as much as possible but eventually just used melee almost exclusively because I couldnt find a decent bow (shortbow of power +15 damage till dlvl 85 or so).

Anyway, he made it down to the bottom and cleared a GV. The next thing on the list would be to kill some dangerous uniques and rounding out the kit before going for the last fights. Heres the dump:

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=14922

He has a pretty typical kit:
a good damage bow (equipped), 2 good damage swords (equipped/on character)
a utility bow (low damage but fire immunity), some utility melee weapons (in home storage, low damage but other goodies like fire immunity).

The options are:
1. use high damage sword, utility bow
2. use utility melee weapon, high damage bow
3. use both high damage sword and bow

What would you do ?

I would pick 1., possibly 3., but never consider 2. I would call the ranger an archer class if I found 2. to be the best option.

Edit(x2): mixed up 1,2,3

[Derakon]

Notice how all of your arrows are listed as doing over 500 damage/round when their slays don't apply? You're getting 3 shots per round with x4 damage/shot. 500 damage/round is fantastic especially since you can avoid melee range. If you don't kill Morgoth with archery then you're making things needlessly hard on yourself.

Even if you stood in melee range and fired arrows point-blank, your damage would still be rivaling most characters' end-game melee damage. You happen to have a fantastic sword (7d5 slay evil! acid brand! *slay* demon!), but most characters won't have something that good.

That said, no, you're not going to kill everything with archery. Good arrows are too rare to allow for that.

[Estie]

Maybe my op has come over as initiating a balance discussion; if so, I am sorry for not being more clear. My intent was rather to figure out how other people play and why there seems to be a different evaluation of archery.

The randart sword is indeed exceptionally good, but in line with the HA BoC; if you think its vastly superior, just imagine you didnt have it. Also, and this is maybe the core of the problem, the Morgoth fight doesnt really count when looking at archery, because you dont care how many arrows you have left after the battle. I have picked a time where there are things to be done before that fight for this reason.

The main focus lies in the question: what would you equip/take along for the next recall ?

[Derakon]

Then you're right, I'd probably focus on killing most enemies with the sword, while reserving the bow for dangerous foes and fleeing monsters. Archery as implemented in Angband is not a good general-purpose monster-killing method, as arrows break too readily and the good ones are in overly-short supply.

EDIT: Random thought: what if arrows came in larger, non-replenishable stacks, and broke every time? So instead of finding a stack of 30 arrows of Slay Evil, you'd find a stack of 100 (or 99, I guess)? And you'd get a guaranteed 99 shots (minus fire/acid losses), and then they'd all be gone. Of course, under such a rule, arrows (and bolts and shots) would have to be lighter, to avoid overweighting the player. And the stack size limit would be moved back to 99.

For comparison, if you had 30 arrows and a 35% breakage chance, then you'd get on average about 85-86 shots off before the last one breaks.

This wouldn't necessarily solve the problems with archery, but I have to admit to not being a huge fan of the probabilistic breakage rule; this seems like a straightforward and reasonable simplification.

[mrrstark]

Are there any tips for getting started as a noob archer?

Seems like there's never enough arrows in the shop, and drops are a bit rare.
Should a fresh archer grab a crossbow, bow, AND sling and just use everything?

[Estie]

Are there any tips for getting started as a noob archer?

Seems like there's never enough arrows in the shop, and drops are a bit rare.
Should a fresh archer grab a crossbow, bow, AND sling and just use everything?

Get a good sword

Seriously though, use either the newest dev version (has guaranteed infinite basic ammo af all 3 types in the general store) or some older version (stacks of 99, and easier overall, 3.1.2v2 for example).

Best to start with a sling unless you can afford to buy a x3 shooter; early on, chances are your first enchanted ammo will be shots. If I happen to find 2 types of good ammo, I might haul noth type of launchers for them.

[MattB]

EDIT: Random thought: what if arrows came in larger, non-replenishable stacks, and broke every time? So instead of finding a stack of 30 arrows of Slay Evil, you'd find a stack of 100 (or 99, I guess)? And you'd get a guaranteed 99 shots (minus fire/acid losses), and then they'd all be gone. Of course, under such a rule, arrows (and bolts and shots) would have to be lighter, to avoid overweighting the player. And the stack size limit would be moved back to 99.

What about dropping mithril missiles to 2d4, making them unbreakable and moving them shallower in the dungeon?

That way you would still keep seekers for huge damage, but have a viable stock option for archery.

Maybe they could be unbrandable if that would overpower them.

[quarague]

Not completely on topic but I would also like an artifact arrow, bolt or shot. Something with massive damage, nice slays and unbreakable, but only a single one. So you could use it to soften up enemies but using it repeately on the same monster would be rather tedious involving various phase doors or TOs (and hoping the monster doesn't pick up items).

[MattB]

Not completely on topic but I would also like an artifact arrow, bolt or shot. Something with massive damage, nice slays and unbreakable, but only a single one. So you could use it to soften up enemies but using it repeately on the same monster would be rather tedious involving various phase doors or TOs (and hoping the monster doesn't pick up items).

I quite agree. Apart from anything else it would mean that 'swuelch all non-artifact arrows' makes sense.
BTW, am I right in thinking that monsters cannot pick up artifacts?

[PowerWyrm]

BTW, am I right in thinking that monsters cannot pick up artifacts?

You're right

About missiles, my variant has a wider set of options for archers/rangers. Instead of artifact missiles with massive damage, you have regular missiles and "returning" missiles, which don't need to be picked up from the floor again once launched. This gives players more options for shooting things.
Early game:
- normal missiles: medium damage ("good" missiles), one use
- returning missiles: low damage (never enchanted, so +0), infinite use (but can still be destroyed by fire/acid)
End game:
- artifact missiles: low to medium damage (often +0, max around +5), infinite use
- ego missiles: high damage (seeker bolts of holy might can be as high as +30!), one use

[MattB]

I quite agree. Apart from anything else it would mean that 'swuelch all non-artifact arrows' makes sense.
BTW, am I right in thinking that monsters cannot pick up artifacts?

Although your lovely [The Pebble of David (5d4 +30,+30); *slays* Undead, Demons and Giants; provides resistance to chaos and nether.] could still get stomped on by Ariel if you were unlucky.

[Timo Pietilä]

Although your lovely [The Pebble of David (5d4 +30,+30); *slays* Undead, Demons and Giants; provides resistance to chaos and nether.] could still get stomped on by Ariel if you were unlucky.

Artifacts cannot be destroyed by monsters either. Earthquake effect can, but only handful of monsters can do that.

Monsters also wont pick up items that slays them. If you see some item-picking monster leaving something onto floor you know that that is ego that slays it, or artifact.

[MattB]

Monsters also wont pick up items that slays them. If you see some item-picking monster leaving something onto floor you know that that is ego that slays it, or artifact.

That's very useful (and considerably arcane) to know. Thanks!