Some thoughts on difficulty

[eMeM]

First version I ever played was 2.8.2. Current version is surely a better game, no question about that. There is no Globe of Invulnerability now. Still it's easier due to few things:
- rods/staves/wands stacks
- ammo quiver
- floor stacks
- squelch
- lot of new cool items

And I like that, I wouldn't mind to see more ego types and user interface improvements like 'h' shoot command. I like randarts along with regular artifacts like in few variants. Yes, it makes game easier but for me that's the fun part of the game. Thrill of being able to find ring of speed (+2x0) or some unimaginable randart even if it's almost unpossible.

Problem in current version is game gives us much too much. Cursed ammo, weapons, armor are gone. There is nothing exceptional in finding early ego items. That used to be rare. It's hard too run out of supply: I squelch Teleport Level because I know I will have more than enough *Destruction* scrolls, I squelch Rod of Speed and Staff of Speed because Potions of Speed are everywhere.

[fizzix]

Problem in current version is game gives us much too much. Cursed ammo, weapons, armor are gone. There is nothing exceptional in finding early ego items. That used too be rare. It's hard too run out of supply: I squelch Teleport Level because I know I will have more than enough *Destruction* scrolls, I squelch Rod of Speed and Staff of Speed because Potions of Speed are everywhere.

They were everywhere in the past too, you just had to scum more. That's the thing with an infinite dungeon, even if you only get one per 100 levels, it's still an infinite supply, just mind-numbingly boring to amass.

[wobbly]

They were everywhere in the past too, you just had to scum more. That's the thing with an infinite dungeon, even if you only get one per 100 levels, it's still an infinite supply, just mind-numbingly boring to amass.

Which is fine by me unless they are necessary to have. It's the difference between:

1) This I really need - you shouldn't have to scum for these items.
2) This is really nice/useful to have - If a player scums for that, tedium is his own fault.

My preference is for less of the more powerful objects, it makes finding things more special, instead of oh a longsword(+2,+2) how boring - squelch, though I suspect I'm in the minority there.

[fizzix]

Which is fine by me unless they are necessary to have. It's the difference between:

1) This I really need - you shouldn't have to scum for these items.
2) This is really nice/useful to have - If a player scums for that, tedium is his own fault.

My preference is for less of the more powerful objects, it makes finding things more special, instead of oh a longsword(+2,+2) how boring - squelch, though I suspect I'm in the minority there.

wait is a longsword +2, +2 supposed to be special?

My last few winners did not find a staff of the magi or a staff of banishment. I had maybe 2-3 ?mass banishment total. Most of my endgame gear came from unique slaying, which I think is good, and independent of dive speed.

[wobbly]

wait is a longsword +2, +2 supposed to be special?

My last few winners did not find a staff of the magi or a staff of banishment. I had maybe 2-3 ?mass banishment total. Most of my endgame gear came from unique slaying, which I think is good, and independent of dive speed.

Should it be boring? Ok, I grant my example is not the best. But let me ask you a question then: Are there artifacts in the game which you find & are disappointed by? How many of the items that you say people would scum for if they were rarer, are actually necessary to playing an interesting, fun game & how many are items they expect because they're used to finding them commonly available?

Reducing the quantity of some items would make some people scum more & others learn to live without. I'm not necessarily saying this is something that should be done. It just seems to me that every time someone suggest reducing the number of high powered items, the answer comes back as "well if you play every level a million times you can find as many of every item you might want". True, but would you?

Anyways just my opinion, the more common the better items you put in the less interesting they become & the more lesser items become junk. Hope I'm not coming across as too argumentative.

[Derakon]

No worries about arguing here. It's about all the community's good for any more. Fortunately most of our arguing is good-natured and productive.

There are certainly artifacts that are usually not exciting when they're found. If you don't get e.g. Nimthanc until you're at 2500', then it's a pretty crappy find. However, it also can be found much earlier -- it's in-depth starting from dlvl 1. If I found it at 500' I'd be pretty ecstatic. Should every artifact always be exciting when found? Then every artifact would have to be an endgame-quality item, which would mean basically doing away with the concept of shallow or mid-tier artifacts entirely.

On the flipside, no artifact is necessary to beat the game. People have won plenty of no-artifact games. I've never tried that particular challenge myself so I don't have a feel for how much scumming you have to do to make up for the lack of artifact gear. Certainly the no-ego-item (or artifact) challenge requires a fair amount of scumming, since you need e.g. certain dragon scale mails to cover elemental resistances, at least one really big speed ring, etc. But only a few people have tried that one.

We can fiddle with the availability of artifacts, making them generally more or less rare. A fair amount of energy is already dedicated to tweaking item frequencies to get them just right. I think most of the community is pretty happy with the current frequencies.

[Carnivean]

Sorry for dragging up an old conversation, but I think that the biggest problem with game "difficulty" that I see is that the monsters are almost always asleep. In terms of realism, this kills a level of interaction. Unless a monster is in their lair (stereotypical dragon scene from fantasy books) then why would it be asleep?

How about all monsters are awake, unless they are in a lair or fortress? You already have pits/nests where large amounts of creatures co-habitate. Why not make them barracks? Away from their lair they would be alert, or even frightened, depending on the level.

Also, you could make monsters lead you into dangerous situations. You already have it with packs leading you into rooms for them to attack together. Why not have the kobold running for his life lead you into orc territory? They'd see you as a bigger threat and attack you, leaving him alive.

Alternatively you could have the lower dlvl monsters not enter the territory of the really scary monster on the level. You find an area where there are no monsters, you might be stumbing into the lair of the local dragon, or what have you. Might be scary to enter, but the monster might be keeping his loot in his lair, instead of carrying it around the dungeon.

You could still have stealth, but it would have to be more like the thief games for example. The stealthier you are the more likely to jump out out of a shadow, or be able to hide your trail, or hide in a dark corridor. At the moment high stealth means being able to pick off a pack of sleeping monsters 1 by 1, even if you don't finish them in the first round of combat, because the others haven't noticed you. I've cast multiple round of meteor swarm in a room, and there are inhabitants of the room still asleep?

[Timo Pietilä]

Sorry for dragging up an old conversation, but I think that the biggest problem with game "difficulty" that I see is that the monsters are almost always asleep. In terms of realism, this kills a level of interaction. Unless a monster is in their lair (stereotypical dragon scene from fantasy books) then why would it be asleep?

Angband is their home. They are in their lair.

[Derakon]

Implementing a more involved stealth system also means doing a lot of work on the AI. It's not impossible; Sil has a more interesting stealth system (though it's not clear it could be ported to Vanilla easily). But it's not trivial, and balancing it properly would similarly be difficult.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just that it's a hard one.

[Carnivean]

Angband is their home. They are in their lair.

No animal I know of makes their lair in a corridor. Very few animals would be willing to sleep in the proximity of other creatures that weren't directly related to them. Both are seen in Angband.

[Therem Harth]

I think the main reason most monsters start out sleeping is so that stealth is actually useful. It would be better to have more granular behavior, where they don't notice you even when awake unless you exceed their noise threshold, but that would probably be tedious to implement.

I mostly agree with you though. Monsters being generated asleep is kind of silly.

[Timo Pietilä]

No animal I know of makes their lair in a corridor. Very few animals would be willing to sleep in the proximity of other creatures that weren't directly related to them. Both are seen in Angband.

You haven't been in any farm I guess. Species doesn't mean anything if there is no danger from them. Angband monsters don't fight each other.

[Tregonsee]

What I think is silly is what kind of monsters are asleep. Ghosts and other undead? I guess the Drill Instructor was right- "You can sleep when you're dead"

[takkaria]

What I think is silly is what kind of monsters are asleep. Ghosts and other undead? I guess the Drill Instructor was right- "You can sleep when you're dead"

Being conscious all the time would be maddening even if you were dead. Maybe they're not asleep, they're just in deep resting.

[Tregonsee]

Being conscious all the time would be maddening even if you were dead. Maybe they're not asleep, they're just in deep resting.

No, they are pining for the Fjords...