Some thoughts on difficulty

[Derakon]

We just need a level playing field. Good players use 'smart AI'. That is they spam entirely predictable, high value, attacks and heal whenever death is a possibility. What's good for the goose... is what you need to begin to solve the problem. If both sides using 'smart AI' result in an unenjoyable playing experience, then some of the core mechanics need to change.

It strikes me that if the game is currently fun, then nothing inherently needs to change. A fun game in which both sides are smart is not automatically better than a fun game in which one side is smart and the other side is stupid, for that matter.

Not that making the monsters smarter isn't an unreasonable goal, just that we shouldn't assume that the status quo is somehow flawed just because the monsters are as dumb as bricks.

[LostTemplar]

just because the monsters are as dumb as bricks.

Yes, at least for me it is. Winning vaniila is simply not as cool as winning e.g. FA for just this reason. You feel like a cheater in V. Actually main thing that make FA better is monster ability to teleport towards player form out of LOS and making surprise attack. Also monster spells scale better with level in FA, so, in general, high level monsters don't have useless spells.

[the Invisible Stalker]

It strikes me that if the game is currently fun, then nothing inherently needs to change. A fun game in which both sides are smart is not automatically better than a fun game in which one side is smart and the other side is stupid, for that matter.

Not that making the monsters smarter isn't an unreasonable goal, just that we shouldn't assume that the status quo is somehow flawed just because the monsters are as dumb as bricks.

But I don't feel that the game is currently fun. I don't really play V anymore. In the rather limited time I have available for such things I play Ironband or O. Perhaps I'm just imagining it, but the monsters don't seem quite as stupid in those variants. And yes, they have monster mana, but even the non-spellcasters seem to behave more rationally.

[wobbly]

The more I've thought about it, the more I conclude that dumb and random AI is actually really the best for both difficulty and replayability. Smart AI is predictable, the amount of consumables/HP/SP you need for the final battle would be very well constrained. And once you figure out a winning tactic, you're essentially done.

In my opinion you've got this in reverse. The dumber you make the monsters the more you have to beef up their hp & damage to keep them challenging, until killing them becomes a war of attrition & patience.

I also think we have different concepts of what "smart" AI is.

Sounds like your talking about: monster always picks most powerful spell, has omnipotent knowledge of opponents weakness etc. etc.

To me smart AI is: don't charge the horde down a corridor where the hero can take them on 1 on 1 (The fact that some Sil monsters don't do this is what impressed me most about the game), don't move the melee orc in the way of the archer orcs etc.

If we're talking in terms of fun, an AI that forces you to maneuver in battle rather then find a safe spot, sit, bash, heal, bash, heal is always better in my opinion. Taking away as many cheap, scummy options is what I'd want to see in good AI. Yeah you can't catch them all, but the more the better.

[MattB]

FYI The no selling flag actually makes the game quite easier, in that you no longer have to deal with hauling around unnecessary shit to sell. You actually find a whole hell of a lot more gold lying around, which it doesn't tell you in the one line of flag description readout in the options. But ever since I discovered the beauty of this option, the game has felt a lot more streamlined. I like being able to explore multiple levels without constant trips back home every level.

A fair point - I've never tried it.
I actually like accumulating gold!

[fizzix]

In my opinion you've got this in reverse. The dumber you make the monsters the more you have to beef up their hp & damage to keep them challenging, until killing them becomes a war of attrition & patience.

I also think we have different concepts of what "smart" AI is.

Sounds like your talking about: monster always picks most powerful spell, has omnipotent knowledge of opponents weakness etc. etc.

To me smart AI is: don't charge the horde down a corridor where the hero can take them on 1 on 1 (The fact that some Sil monsters don't do this is what impressed me most about the game), don't move the melee orc in the way of the archer orcs etc.

If we're talking in terms of fun, an AI that forces you to maneuver in battle rather then find a safe spot, sit, bash, heal, bash, heal is always better in my opinion. Taking away as many cheap, scummy options is what I'd want to see in good AI. Yeah you can't catch them all, but the more the better.

A couple points.

Angband is a many vs. one game. Attacking one monster with smart AI can be interesting, but when you have to deal with an entire orc pit worth of them it gets tedious fast. Mostly because the maneuvering will wind up being a complicated and repetitive task. Sil works better for this because the monster density is much lower. If the solution is to remove large groups of monsters, then Angband would look very different.

The many vs. one also limits a developers ability to maintain parity between player and monster abilities. Granted V has issues here as is but it would have many more issues if monsters always maneuvered into a place where their bodies also have line of sight.

I'd also check out something like Tome4 which attempts to maintain monster/player parity and does a pretty decent job at it. The feel is very different.

edit: I'll also say that just because I'm arguing against it doesn't mean I will fight against inclusion into V tooth and nail, it just means I'm not willing to write the code!

[wobbly]

Angband is a many vs. one game. Attacking one monster with smart AI can be interesting, but when you have to deal with an entire orc pit worth of them it gets tedious fast. Mostly because the maneuvering will wind up being a complicated and repetitive task. Sil works better for this because the monster density is much lower. If the solution is to remove large groups of monsters, then Angband would look very different.

There's always the in-between level (between sil's stripped down monster density & angband's mass hordes). I have to admit the parts of angband where you end up having to bash through say 20 black ogre is 1 of the major reasons I don't play vanilla angband much. (That get's tedious quick however smart or dumb the ai is). Perhaps others actually love that & I'm better of playing a variant. I'm fine with it if it's the case.

edit: I'll also say that just because I'm arguing against it doesn't mean I will fight against inclusion into V tooth and nail, it just means I'm not willing to write the code!

I get that & as I'm not willing to write the code either I can't really whinge about that. It's more a matter of having occasionally seen people say dumb AI is actually a good thing & dumb AI being a pet hate of mine (in any game), I thought I'd give my own opinion on the matter.

[Estie]

The ai that runs away, heals more, uses best spells is in no way smarter than the one that uses things randomly. Thats a misconception caused by humans imagining themselves in the role of a monster.
For game purposes, when designing ai behaviour the only consideration can be to make combat tactically enjoyable for the player. While creating a better illusion of an intelligent opponent might sometimes do that, it loses its appeal with repetition. In a hack and slash game, some monsters running away might be fun; all of them doing it certainly isnt.

I wonder if people really think things through when they suggest more "intelligent" monsters. If the way to win the game is to chase down and corner snagas, would you really like to play it ? Just one aspect of this is that it would take much longer, possibly by a factor of 10. Imagine youd have to kill every monster like Maggot.

I am not saying the random or current ai is the best possible; but I doubt that "more intelligent" (in the sense of "what I would do if I was a snaga in that position") automatically leads to the better game, rather to the contrary.

[Estie]

Somewhat related:

In Neverwinter Nights (nwn), the default ai attacks low armor class in preferance over high; this would be considered "intelligent" ai, as it exactly what an intelligent opponent would do, too.
Nwn is a multiplayer game; when making a character, everyone builds high AC foremost, because low AC means youre getting targetted first and die. As a result, the group interaction is very limited compared to a mmo with a tank, dps, healer setup where the "dumb" ai attacks the tank even though its clearly the least advantageous thing to do.

Obviously Angband isnt a multiplayer game, but I am mentioning this because its a good example of a smart ai leading to dumbed down gameplay.

[Timo Pietilä]

Yes it was harder to find speed, but isnt that because we didnt go down fast enough.

Not really because only non-artifact items giving speed were RoS and BoS. If you didn't get BoS you needed to go down to RoS-depth without any speed at all beyond haste. To dive there with our current diving speed with the limited detection would have been quite suicidal.

[MattB]

Yep, Morgoth should constantly use Mana Storm until you run out of Healing, *Healing*, and Life potions. Then you'll have to run away to restock or he can just Mana Storm you to death.

Yeah, Morgoth really is dumb.
If he had any sense he'd just stand at the bottom of the stairs to dlvl1 and Grond anyone on the head that comes down.

[Oramin]

Actually, isn't Carcharoth supposed to be standing guard at the entrance to Angband?

[Starhawk]

Yeah, Morgoth really is dumb.
If he had any sense he'd just stand at the bottom of the stairs to dlvl1 and Grond anyone on the head that comes down.

You'd think he would just head UP those stairs and level the town once and for all. That ought to solve the problem with pesky adventurers buying houses there.

[MattB]

You'd think he would just head UP those stairs and level the town once and for all. That ought to solve the problem with pesky adventurers buying houses there.

I suspect he actually encourages the ebb and flow of items up and down the dungeon because he owns all the businesses up top, and runs them as a front for his company running research into a new brand of Sil removal cream.

[kaypy]

The adventurers at 50' aren't worth any experience and don't carry much treasure, either.

It's fine when you're starting out- a kobold kills a few novice adventurers, and bam- large kobold. But as Lord of Darkness? You'd be grinding all year...