Least exciting uniques

[fizzix]

Like many people before me, I want to make a "shortened" version. However, I would like to keep most of the object and artifact development. I think this could fit well with 50 level game. The problem is uniques, there are far too many uniques for a 50 level game. I'm looking to remove the uniques that are least interesting, so this is an attempt to catalogue that. So which uniques do you find to you find the most yawn inducing. Here's my list (with some reasons why.)

Grip + fang (should be combined into a pair that shows up together.)
Mughash (should be replaced with a kobold lord monster)
Brodda
Orfax (just boldor is enough)
out of (lagduf, grishnakh, golfimbul, ufthak, shagrat, gorbag, bolg, 
lugdush, ugluk, azog) keep how many?  which ones?
Ulfast, Ulwarth (maybe should accompany ulfang)
Ibun, khim are the same (should come together, maybe as escorts to Mim)
Sangahyando and Angamaite should come together, or be dropped altogether
Uldor (a weaker version of ulfang)
Lokkak 
Bert Bill Tom (should come as a trio without escorts)
Queen ant (I feel many ants and this unique are misplaced in difficulty. 
She's uninteresting where she is, but could be neat earlier.)
Castamir
Rogrog
Vargo, Waldern, Quaker, Ariel (no drops, so just avoid)
Scatha, Itangast
Balrog of Moria (Lungorthin and Gothmog are enough)
Lernean Hydra (enough fire breathing uniques, no need for this one)
Arien (same as above)
Radagast (why stronger than Saruman, why summon Maia and not animals?)
Cat lord
Out of Polyphemus, Atlas, Kronos, probably keep 1
Omarax
Feagwath (weaker version of Vecna)
Cantoras
Huan (why are you fighting it?  If it stays it should come with Carcharoth)
The 9 ringwraiths are not terribly interesting.  Perhaps make them all weaker and have them arrive together as escorts for the witch-king.

[Pete Mack]

In my opinion you are making a mistake in assuming that all uniques should be "interesting".
a. When I first meet the Queen Ant, she is always a challenge, and a real problem in vaults.
b. Elementals are annoying. Why should the uniques be any different


The sets of uniques appearing together is solved in NPPAngband.

[Raxmei]

Nar the Dwarf isn't terribly interesting.

[fizzix]

In my opinion you are making a mistake in assuming that all uniques should be "interesting".
a. When I first meet the Queen Ant, she is always a challenge, and a real problem in vaults.
b. Elementals are annoying. Why should the uniques be any different

Well the problem is more that if you move to a 50 level dungeon from an 100 level dungeon then it makes sense to remove some of the uniques. So it's more a method of choosing which ones to get rid of. (A common choice is to eliminate the non-Tolkien uniques, but I'd rather get rid of the non-interesting ones)

[Derakon]

Why should uniques be removed? What's wrong with having a 50-level dungeon that has 5000 enemy types in it?

[scud]

I love and cherish all 97 of them in 3.3.2. I do like the idea of the stone trolls et al appearing on family outings, though.

Re rubbish uniques I'd agree that the elemental uniques are dull and avoidable; that the ringwraiths get weaker relative to my adventurer until the last two with their greater undead summon; also (possibly because I'm 'fire immunity' obsessed) the unique balrogs are a bunch of pansies.

[Feloniousmonk]

why get rid of any of the uniques? I feel pretty strongly about this one. I'm open to change but the reasoning would have to be fairly convincing.

[emulord]

I like all the uniques. I do agree that some would be better if they were reworked.

Bill+Tom+Bert should appear with each other and no other escorts.
WitchKing should appear with all the other ringwraiths.
If Grip and Fang appear together they should be 1 dlevel deeper. Even solo they're very dangerous at depth.


I can't think of anything else that needs to be changed, but I'm sure you could improve some of these unique fights.

[fizzix]

Why should uniques be removed? What's wrong with having a 50-level dungeon that has 5000 enemy types in it?

Generally uniques are a cut above the normal monsters that roam around the dungeon. Part of my goals are to reduce situations where you need to rely on certain tactics (TO, destruction, etc.) I'd like it to be possible, albeit a bit difficult, to descend + clear every level using only what you find in the dungeon. This involves reducing the super deadly monsters that appear on any level. If uniques are super-deadly (and most are at depth, and I'd like them to be too) then that means that you can't have so many uniques occurring on any level.

If Sauron and Morgoth can summon uniques, and I'd like them to be able to, then it means that you need to kill the deadly uniques before you face them. I'm not sure that this form of Angband is any better for gameplay value than current Vanilla. It certainly would be a huge stylistic departure for how we tend to approach the game. But I'd like to try! That means cutting uniques down to about 50.

To be clear, this is for my own experiment. It's very unlikely that any of these changes would be suitable for V, although if I find some interesting rebalancing methods that seem apropos, I'll propose them.

[Timo Pietilä]

Like many people before me, I want to make a "shortened" version. However, I would like to keep most of the object and artifact development. I think this could fit well with 50 level game. The problem is uniques, there are far too many uniques for a 50 level game. I'm looking to remove the uniques that are least interesting, so this is an attempt to catalogue that. So which uniques do you find to you find the most yawn inducing.

I don't agree with most of your list. All of the early uniques are good source for items (or should be). Orc uniques I would keep because they are appropriate to atmosphere. They are more like special rooms than individually interesting monsters. Orc pits that appear at random location. Some of the suggestions you made are good ones though, like grouping ringwraiths, Grip&Fang, Tom,Bill,Bert etc.

My list:

Most early humanoid uniques are boring with exception to Wormtongue. About at Lorgan -depth they start to be interesting.

All the giant uniques are boring. I actually don't even care which one I'm fighting when I meet them. Unique Q:s are boring. Thuringwethil doesn't pose any threat whatsoever for the depth of it, it's just... there. Should have like nether breath or something like that to make it interesting. PASS_WALL like elder vampires at least. Pazuzu is boring and feels out of place compared to all of the rest of demons (if you change it to bird, like companion to Phoenix, it could work better).

Huan and Radagast don't belong to dungeon at all. Need replacement for Radagast. Ossë is old Azriel, but I think Ossë would work better as Gabriel-replacement than Radagast (give it water bolt). We need some maia from Mandos folk to properly replace Azriel (nether/death), but unfortunately I don't know any. Arien should be closer in power to Greater Balrogs (I think all Balrogs are originally same class as Arien, but just corrupted by Morgoth)

[MattB]

I would put the Cat Lord near the top of my interesting list, coming at you out of nowhere at supersonic speed and ripping you to shreds before you know what's going on.

(or maybe I just don't detect enough...)

[clouded]

Why should uniques be removed? What's wrong with having a 50-level dungeon that has 5000 enemy types in it?

Yes, a game with 200 colours of beetle would be inspiring. Should there be 5000 types of weapons and armour too? This is the laziest type of design. Copy something, rename it and hey you made a new feature. Good design is making everything in your game distinct, see Sil, see Brogue. Though even Sil is guilty of this a little... soldiers/warriors, wolves/white wolves, cave trolls/troll guards.

To the actual topic, I'm not entirely familiar with uniques as they are in vanilla, as I mainly play FA where a number have been removed and there are (probably) various changes. But from your list, the ones I usually have good encounters with are Bolg & Azog (they could come together though, wouldn't that be fun?), the Cat Lord (I think this is the same as Tevildo in FA?) and Cantoras. I agree that the orc uniques add a lot to theme and atmosphere, as do the wraiths, so they are worth keeping. Looking down my monster memory in 3.4.1, there are a large number that I couldn't tell you what they did, but I assume since you didn't list them they have something about them.

The regular monsters need a good culling too, there are entire glyphs that are worthless, K, i, I, l, r, F, m, J, Y, a, all c besides stegocentepedes and carrion crawlers, all q besides nightmares, all R besides basilisks (and greater ones), I could go on.

P.S. to fizzix: I fully support you trying to improve the game (and I mean vanilla too), I hope you don't hold back or get discouraged by one thing or another.

[ramela]

Huan and Radagast don't belong to dungeon at all. Need replacement for Radagast. Ossë is old Azriel, but I think Ossë would work better as Gabriel-replacement than Radagast (give it water bolt). We need some maia from Mandos folk to properly replace Azriel (nether/death), but unfortunately I don't know any. Arien should be closer in power to Greater Balrogs (I think all Balrogs are originally same class as Arien, but just corrupted by Morgoth)

According to ICE's Lords of the Middle Earth roleplaying compendiums, which I used as source material when I submitted the Unique Maiar that Jeff used in NPP, Pallando was mentioned as belonging to Mandos' and Nienna's folk. In most sources he is affiliated with Oromë, though, like Alatar.

Also in ICE's material Arien is the second most powerful Maia (behind Sauron), so I swapped her and Lungothrin in terms of depth and power level, making Arien the second most powerful fire-based moster, but unlike the Balrogs, she Resists Cold and is non-evil.

I read in some appendix to LotR (or possibly Unfinished Tales or something, I don't remember exactly) that Gandalf was considered to be the only succesful member of the Istar, completing his mission and returning to the Immortal Lands. This is the reason I added Radagast originally, though considering that Arien has been in *bands since forever, IMO there is no reason to have Radagast also.

[Timo Pietilä]

This is the reason I added Radagast originally, though considering that Arien has been in *bands since forever, IMO there is no reason to have Radagast also.

Radagast failed his mission, but didn't become hostile or anything like that, he just didn't do what he was supposed to do. He's one of the monsters I can't imagine seeing in Angband, he would be more in place if he didn't fail his mission (because how he failed it). Huan is another not in place monster, but considering that there are also Farmer Maggot and his dogs Grip and Fang (but not Wolf for some reason) it's not "inconsistent".

As for Arien, that's something that came in the game with Radagast. I think you are thinking about Ariel which is unique E (and still is). Ariel sounds like angel BTW, Uriel, Azriel (or Azrael), Gabriel, Michael ...iel or ...ael all of them.

[academic.sam]

Personally, I'd hate see any of the uniques in Fizzix's list go. They have been a part of Angband for so long. So, not having them would make it Angband, less.

Perhaps, they could be made more interesting.