Playing 3.4.1 after a few years off

[buzzkill]

Actually I probably wasn't being clear, I want to try a version where everything is identified as soon as you see it, rather than unknown until you've jumped through a few arbitrary hoops.

Just wait a year or two. Vanilla seems to be moving in this direction, and anyone who cares already gave up trying to stop it.

[fizzix]

Just wait a year or two. Vanilla seems to be moving in this direction, and anyone who cares already gave up trying to stop it.

I disagree. If anything it's moving towards a version where the identify spell is gone but it's easier to identify weapons by flavor (rune). I don't see unid'd flavors ever going away from V, and I'm not sure anyone wants them to.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

I disagree. If anything it's moving towards a version where the identify spell is gone but it's easier to identify weapons by flavor (rune). I don't see unid'd flavors ever going away from V, and I'm not sure anyone wants them to.

Yes, identifying weapons and armors is a chore, but identifying potions, scrolls and devices is pretty fun. Looks like Vanilla's direction is actually quite similar to what I did. In Mist, weapons and armors are already id'd but identifying other items is more challenging.

[Magnate]

Yes, identifying weapons and armors is a chore, but identifying potions, scrolls and devices is pretty fun. Looks like Vanilla's direction is actually quite similar to what I did. In Mist, weapons and armors are already id'd but identifying other items is more challenging.

I actually think the ID-by-use of weapons and armour is good, but IMO the problem is the time taken to swap kit. I think it should take only half a turn to swap weapons (or less, say 30 energy). Similarly it should take less energy (than 100) to swap most armor pieces (body armour excepted).

@buzzkill: no more maintainer votes for you!

[Timo Pietilä]

I actually think the ID-by-use of weapons and armour is good, but IMO the problem is the time taken to swap kit.

Consider huge loot from dragon pit and it is no longer problem at swapping: no matter how fast you can swap it would take forever to get item, find something to use it, get next item, find next something to use it etc. You need to be able to tell what weapon does or doesn't do pretty much immediately at higher levels because you simply can't carry and test everything. This is what rune-based system is all about, at higher levels you know immediately what item does, because you have identified those runes much earlier (and if item still has some unknown rune it would be actually interesting to find out what it is).

[Mikko Lehtinen]

This is what rune-based system is all about, at higher levels you know immediately what item does, because you have identified those runes much earlier (and if item still has some unknown rune it would be actually interesting to find out what it is).

Yes, it sounds like an excellent system for wargear.

[half]

Yes, identifying weapons and armors is a chore, but identifying potions, scrolls and devices is pretty fun. Looks like Vanilla's direction is actually quite similar to what I did. In Mist, weapons and armors are already id'd but identifying other items is more challenging.

In Sil, item plusses are always shown, so the only aspect of a weapon you ned to determine is its 'ego type'. I've moved these to a flavour type system, so if you identify a Spear (defender), then all (defender) items are identified. This is a *very* simple and natural system, as it is just extending the flavour system to wearable items and dropping the alternate identification system.

There is also a strong identify-by-use system. This is simpler than V's as identifying any flag of the 'ego type' will identify it. This works well in Sil as I've made it so that there are no overlapping flags on those 'ego types' within an item slot. It is a little bit less satisfying with Artefacts as there may be some overlap. This problem already exists to some extent in V as you can tell a cure light wounds potion from a healing potion even if both just restore your final hit point. Obviously having a shorter list of possible types helps here -- it also makes identify by use more fun in general, regardless of the system used.

I also offer a special ability to completely identify everything on sight and to get all monster knowledge. Even with all the assistance for the identification subgame, this ability is very popular. One reason for this is probably that Sil games are much shorter, so building up your item knowledge gives less long-term progress.

[Magnate]

Yes, it sounds like an excellent system for wargear.

It works well in v4!

[Timo Pietilä]

It works well in v4!

This is actually one thing in V4 that I would like to see in vanilla asap.

Old system was

unknown item - pseudo - unknown type - ID - known type, some mystery with random abilities and artifacts -*ID*/self knowledge/*enlightement*

Now it is

unknown item - pseudo/immediately notice that thing is artifact - unknown type/unknown abilities - ID.

Current system took out the mystery with new things.

V4 runes would restore the mystery part while removing the need for ID, IE. go other way around than current is. IMO that's a lot better approach than this current system.

[azfalt]

How about a mid-level mage ball spell that identifies any item within the blast radius? Make it zero damage but have it hurt light-sensitive monsters.

Either rune-based or a "learnt flavours" system (e.g. recognize all Slay Animal weapons once one is ID'd) would be a welcome change to alleviate ID tedium.

[emulord]

Some ID suggestions

1. Probing should ID everything in sight. Idk why it hasnt before. I never used it since who cares what the exact HP of something is.

2. I feel like ego types should be flavored (like potions and wands), with pseudo ID discovering +/- benefits and {excellent, special, terrible} if it has a unidentified ego type. This preserves early game ID use, makes pseudo still important, and once all excellent types are discovered, doesn't slow down the late game.

3. Rather than ID'ing on pickup or detect, ID excellent type once its in sight or stepped over. Detecting speed rings, health pots, dragon scale mail is already too much information for attempting vaults.

[Derakon]

Some ID suggestions

1. Probing should ID everything in sight. Idk why it hasnt before. I never used it since who cares what the exact HP of something is.

IDing everything in LOS is a bad idea because it marks artifacts as seen. If you want a batch-ID it should be a radius-2 ball centered on the player or something similar.

2. I feel like ego types should be flavored (like potions and wands), with pseudo ID discovering +/- benefits and {excellent, special, terrible} if it has a unidentified ego type. This preserves early game ID use, makes pseudo still important, and once all excellent types are discovered, doesn't slow down the late game.

This is broadly similar to rune-based ID. Instead of learning to recognize, say, Resist Fire, and then being able to tell when any item has that attribute, you instead learn to recognize weapons of Burning and can recognize any such weapon (and also learn that it has a light radius and cannot be damaged by fire) -- but can't recognize Resist Fire on other items.

v4 has rune-based ID just about working; I think it more likely that that will be ported to Vanilla than that we'd add the flavor-based approach.

3. Rather than ID'ing on pickup or detect, ID excellent type once its in sight or stepped over. Detecting speed rings, health pots, dragon scale mail is already too much information for attempting vaults.

Man, you can't be allowed to know if there's good loot in a vault before you even attempt it! There's eliminating tedium, and then there's handing important gameplay information to the player. Telling the player "Okay, yes, this vault has good stuff" is worse than the old Detect Object was, and we were well-justified in nerfing that.

[fizzix]

IDing everything in LOS is a bad idea because it marks artifacts as seen. If you want a batch-ID it should be a radius-2 ball centered on the player or something similar.

I'll test this out soon. I have an ID everything in LoS coded up, we'll see how important the artifact losing issue is. My personal feeling for some who IDs a bunch of items but gets kicked off the level before he can get them is "tough luck."

[Oramin]

Just FYI, I don't squelch anything in 3.3.2 and I ID pretty much everything. I have no problems with the system as it exists which seems to be fairly similar to the way things have been in Vanilla since I first started playing (actually, it seems to already be much easier than it used to be). Major changes in the ID system would change the feel of the game.

[fizzix]

Just FYI, I don't squelch anything in 3.3.2 and I ID pretty much everything. I have no problems with the system as it exists which seems to be fairly similar to the way things have been in Vanilla since I first started playing (actually, it seems to already be much easier than it used to be). Major changes in the ID system would change the feel of the game.

well the mass-id is for my personal playing pleasure. I'm not going to foist that onto V unless people clamor for it.