Poll: Vanilla item quality drop rates

[fizzix]

I'd like to get some feedback on what people feel about the changes we made to item drops in v3.4.x. Artifacts and ego items are rarer overall. I made a poll for general results, but specific feedback about certain item or item types not being dropped frequently enough (or too frequently) are appreciated.

[Malak Darkhunter]

I'm fine with artifacts being rare, I think artifact drops got a little common starting about DL60. I do think that ego's need to be a little more common though, lack of good gear and resist base can be aggravating.

Some slay brands seem a little redudant and could probably be done away with, I don't usually pay much attention to Slay_Giant and Slay_Demon, Slay_Dragon (unless it Calris or equivalent ) Slay_Undead, Slay_Orc , wouldn't these be covered under Slay_Evil ? Elemental brands can give as much benefit as these slays anyway.
You could hypotheticaly get rid of some slays and make other ego types more common to compensate.
I've never quite understood why an item has Slay_orc , Slay_trolls, and then Slays all evil creatures, why not just give it Slay_Evil?

[Derakon]

The reason more specific slays exist is because Slay Evil is a weak slay -- it only doubles the damage dice, while all other slays at least triple them (and the *Slay* effects quintuple them).

Haven't you looked at the damage display on the 'I'nspect screen and noticed that it gives different readouts for evil monsters vs. the more specific slays?

[fizzix]

I'm fine with artifacts being rare, I think artifact drops got a little common starting about DL60. I do think that ego's need to be a little more common though, lack of good gear and resist base can be aggravating.

Some slay brands seem a little redudant and could probably be done away with, I don't usually pay much attention to Slay_Giant and Slay_Demon, Slay_Dragon (unless it Calris or equivalent ) Slay_Undead, Slay_Orc , wouldn't these be covered under Slay_Evil ? Elemental brands can give as much benefit as these slays anyway.
You could hypotheticaly get rid of some slays and make other ego types more common to compensate.

So there is a lot of room to play with random egos and levels. Right now I'm not sure it uses stuff properly, but I can probably fix it if there's enough desire for changes. I can also run stats to see how well selection options work, but theoretically we can fine tune which egos appear on which levels. (we specify min level, max level and a commonness value)

I've never quite understood why an item has Slay_orc , Slay_trolls, and then Slays all evil creatures, why not just give it Slay_Evil?

Slay evil is a 2x multiplier. all the other slays are 3x. The *slays* are 5x.

[TJS]

I find that after a certain level there are far too many egos created. 10-20 per level if there is a large group of monsters with drops.

I'd say you should find egos about twice as often as artifacts.

The solution I think is to not create equipment below a certain standard at each level so no "slay orc" or "resist fire" after dungeon level 40 say.

Artifacts are ok up to the later levels when they get a bit too common. As I said in the other thread I think that the chances of getting an artifact should not increase by much as you get deeper, just the quality increases if you do get one. They should still be very rare even on level 99.

[fizzix]

Artifacts are ok up to the later levels when they get a bit too common. As I said in the other thread I think that the chances of getting an artifact should not increase by much as you get deeper, just the quality increases if you do get one. They should still be very rare even on level 99.

The total number of items is much higher in the later levels. You have far more monsters with drops and far more vaults and special rooms appearing.

Having a flatter distribution for artifacts is something that I've been thinking about, but I'm not sure how feasible it is. Regardless, you will always find more artifacts later than earlier just because you can do things like kill a bunch of barbazu later. This will always be true unless we make artifacts less common as you descend, which seems a little perverse.

[TJS]

The total number of items is much higher in the later levels. You have far more monsters with drops and far more vaults and special rooms appearing.

Having a flatter distribution for artifacts is something that I've been thinking about, but I'm not sure how feasible it is. Regardless, you will always find more artifacts later than earlier just because you can do things like kill a bunch of barbazu later. This will always be true unless we make artifacts less common as you descend, which seems a little perverse.

But why can you kill more monsters as you descend? Shouldn't the levels roughly be balanced so you can kill the same % of monsters on each level? If you can easily kill loads of monsters on later levels then they're obviously appearing too deep.

Groups of monsters should be less likely to carry objects (you can rationalise it by saying that they pool their treasure finds rather than keep them all for themselves). Clearing a dragon pit drops absurd amounts of loot.

Also why have more vaults on later levels? I'd be delighted to find a vault on dlvl 10.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Groups of monsters should be less likely to carry objects (you can rationalise it by saying that they pool their treasure finds rather than keep them all for themselves).

In Halls of Mist, group monsters usually drop just gold instead of objects. I got bored looting orcs.

[buzzkill]

In Halls of Mist, group monsters usually drop just gold instead of objects. I got bored looting orcs.

But gold actually matters in Mist. You seldom have as much as you need, and never has as much as you would want. In Mist, I'd rather find a nice pile of gold than a weapon or armour.

[fizzix]

But why can you kill more monsters as you descend? Shouldn't the levels roughly be balanced so you can kill the same % of monsters on each level? If you can easily kill loads of monsters on later levels then they're obviously appearing too deep.

Vanilla puts no upper bound on what levels monsters can appear, only a lower bound. Monsters get slightly less frequent as you descend only because more monsters are available to choose from. Furthermore deeper monsters tend to drop more items than lower level monsters. This makes some intuitive sense as well, you'd expect a great wyrm to have a larger hoard than a young dragon. Changing these mechanics is a far far bigger change than is likely to be acceptable in 3.5. I'm going to assume that we have to frame all of our changes in a game where later levels drop more items.

Nonetheless we can change the rate of artifact/ego drop per item to be less dependent on level, and this is what I'm trying to get feedback on.

Groups of monsters should be less likely to carry objects (you can rationalise it by saying that they pool their treasure finds rather than keep them all for themselves). Clearing a dragon pit drops absurd amounts of loot.

That's true for pretty much everything except for the demon groups. Demon groups are dangerous though, so I feel this isn't so bad.

Dragons are solitary creatures except in pits or in ancalagon's escort. (Ainu pits drop more loot too)

Also why have more vaults on later levels? I'd be delighted to find a vault on dlvl 10.

Can you break into a vault on dlevel 10? Can you handle a 10 level OoD monster at that depth. Probably not. I've come across early vaults, and I almost always have to avoid them.

Nonetheless, tweaking vault (and pit) frequency is possible, and we should discuss that separately.

[Egavactip]

I finished the game with the latest version a few weeks ago, and have another character up to 33rd level now, so it is enough to get something of a feel for the drop dynamics. These were with randarts.

What I have noticed with both is that I was really starved of any good weapon or armor for a very long time, and I pretty much stagnated for some time because I couldn't kill monsters very easily. Then, at some level or another, suddenly ego weapons were quite common. And in the first game I played, I went for a really long time without even a crappy artifact, then suddenly, it was like a light switch went on and they began to pile up.

I guess I'd like to see a more even distribution. so that I have a chance at finding a good weapon somewhat early on, but in the late game am not selling a bunch of artifacts less nice than what I have.

I'd also like to see three categories of artifacts: lesser artifacts, artifacts, and greater artifacts. You ought to have a chance to get a lesser artifact even on a relatively low level, while the greater artifacts ought to be mostly very deep in the dungeon.

You might also consider artifacts that need to be fueled, just like lamps. For example, you might have a cool, powerful artifact, but it will stop working after a while unless you sacrifice at least an ego weapon or major spellbook to it.

[fizzix]

I finished the game with the latest version a few weeks ago, and have another character up to 33rd level now, so it is enough to get something of a feel for the drop dynamics. These were with randarts.

What I have noticed with both is that I was really starved of any good weapon or armor for a very long time, and I pretty much stagnated for some time because I couldn't kill monsters very easily. Then, at some level or another, suddenly ego weapons were quite common. And in the first game I played, I went for a really long time without even a crappy artifact, then suddenly, it was like a light switch went on and they began to pile up.

I guess I'd like to see a more even distribution. so that I have a chance at finding a good weapon somewhat early on, but in the late game am not selling a bunch of artifacts less nice than what I have.

This is tricky, although I will look at trying to make artifact generation chance less level dependent. Since you can only be wielding one weapon at a time, you're always going to be running into a situation where you come across less-good weapons that you either ditch or sell.

I'd also like to see three categories of artifacts: lesser artifacts, artifacts, and greater artifacts. You ought to have a chance to get a lesser artifact even on a relatively low level, while the greater artifacts ought to be mostly very deep in the dungeon.

This already occurs. Artifacts have minimum (and maximum) depths as well as generation chances. Some artifacts are hard to find because they only show up deep (e.g. deathwreaker). Others are hard to find because they have very low generation chance (e.g. ringil). This is true for randarts as well.

You might also consider artifacts that need to be fueled, just like lamps. For example, you might have a cool, powerful artifact, but it will stop working after a while unless you sacrifice at least an ego weapon or major spellbook to it.

Sentient weapons are pretty neat, but they're a lot of work, and probably unlikely to make it into Vanilla anytime soon. There's been a lot of talk about powerful artifacts/items starting out cursed and requiring the player to do something to un-curse it, transforming it into a very useful weapon. I think this probably a more reasonable avenue to work on, but it needs someone to focus on writing the sizable amount of code and then stump for its acceptance.

Thanks for your feedback.

[Malak Darkhunter]

Some cursed items exist already that get fuel by draining expereince, which I think is okay, I'm not a fan of Oblivion style special weapons that require recharging/fuel to work though, makes in my opinion aggravating gameplay, and could potentialy burden the player with the need to carry more items in the backpack.

[getter77]

Mainly, it always just makes me shake my head to see Uniques, potentially several at a whack---not drop anything of note/just a bit of gold. If they were guaranteed to drop something nifty and Gold, I'd imagine that would help to smooth things out a fair bit as you'd have real incentive to hunt them as early and often as possible as a more proactive means of gaining power alongside vault attacking as opposed to just diving and hoping for lucky floor content and eventual mobs.

Could even theme it a bit and have a guaranteed Unique spawn on the first visit to min-depth for stat potions to show up who would then also be guaranteed to drop at least one of said potions.

[Derakon]

Ehh, there's far too many uniques to make each of them always drop something worthwhile. Besides, Angband is all about the irregular rewards -- the game's more addictive when you don't know when you're going to get that item you want.