[3.4.0] feedback

[Malak Darkhunter]

For many beginners, diving and dying is much more fun than taking it very carefully and eventually winning. For many, roguelikes are at most fun when survival is at stake at all times, more or less.

I actually don't think I would enjoy trying to seriously win Angband. But learning to survive out-of-depth is a different game, and fun. I like to be rewarded for taking stupid risks occasionally. In this context, preserve off seems unfair and unfun.

I guess this could be a great playtest, to try and aggressively dive the entire game, 1 run with preserve on, the 2nd run with preserve off and compare artifacts found, fun factor, etc.

[Patashu]

I think preserve off by default is only OK if you are notified whenever an artifact is generated on a level (even while the level is in progress). Or maybe notified when you try to leave.

[Malak Darkhunter]

I think preserve off by default is only OK if you are notified whenever an artifact is generated on a level (even while the level is in progress). Or maybe notified when you try to leave.

This would go back to the level feelings, in ex. special feelings. I'm not sure if this has been improved for 3.4 because I think the level feelings were kind of broken?
I think birth_no preserve was supposed to give you special feelings when an artifact was generated.

[Estie]

Last I checked, there is an option to toggle preserve mode and if its turned off, you get the special feeling when an artifact is created on a level. So everyone can pick their favoured way of playing.

[Derakon]

"Special" level feelings have never been reliable. In 2.4 frog-knows they occasionally triggered because there was a slime pit on the level. Now granted, if there was an artifact on the level, you would always get a special level feeling, but a special level feeling did not guarantee that there was an artifact.

I still don't really see why disabling preserve mode would be desirable.

[Magnate]

"Special" level feelings have never been reliable. In 2.4 frog-knows they occasionally triggered because there was a slime pit on the level. Now granted, if there was an artifact on the level, you would always get a special level feeling, but a special level feeling did not guarantee that there was an artifact.

I fixed this at some point during 3.3.x, so it's definitely fixed for 3.4.0: special feelings only ever appear if you're playing with preserve off, and they always mean that an artifact is present on the level. (Note that this does not necessarily mean on the floor - it may be being carried by a monster...)

[Estie]

Some ironman observations:

( http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=13627 was my try)

1. The shop spellbooks could use earlier appearance and higher droprate. With my priest I restarted till the Farmer Maggot drop could buy me book 3; even so, the first baby red dragon encountered burned it right after waking up. I was about to give up on the character then but happened to find an adamantite plate mail of resistance, weighing a ton and giving 100 ac. Donning that thing put me at speed around -10, but barely anything could hit me (150 or so AC at shallow depth) so I played melee till eventually at clevel 25 (!) a book 3 showed up.

As it is, as a rule you cannot expect to have your spells in the early game with a spellcaster. The dungeon offers the books way too late and eats them faster than they drop. While that may be fine for the exotic late books, missing the basic ones defeats the purpose of playing caster.

2. Phase door scrolls also could be more common. I already noticed this with the warrior I played a while ago; the priest basically never used them once blink was available, also happened to have an early acid immunity, but still the stack didnt grow. It rather went from a 30 item high down to 5.

Other than those 2, ironman seems fine. I was worried that recent changes might have brought unsurmountable difficulties for that game mode, but while it definitely got harder, in principle it should still be winnable.

[fizzix]

Some ironman observations:

( http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=13627 was my try)

1. The shop spellbooks could use earlier appearance and higher droprate. With my priest I restarted till the Farmer Maggot drop could buy me book 3; even so, the first baby red dragon encountered burned it right after waking up. I was about to give up on the character then but happened to find an adamantite plate mail of resistance, weighing a ton and giving 100 ac. Donning that thing put me at speed around -10, but barely anything could hit me (150 or so AC at shallow depth) so I played melee till eventually at clevel 25 (!) a book 3 showed up.

As it is, as a rule you cannot expect to have your spells in the early game with a spellcaster. The dungeon offers the books way too late and eats them faster than they drop. While that may be fine for the exotic late books, missing the basic ones defeats the purpose of playing caster.

2. Phase door scrolls also could be more common. I already noticed this with the warrior I played a while ago; the priest basically never used them once blink was available, also happened to have an early acid immunity, but still the stack didnt grow. It rather went from a 30 item high down to 5.

Other than those 2, ironman seems fine. I was worried that recent changes might have brought unsurmountable difficulties for that game mode, but while it definitely got harder, in principle it should still be winnable.

Thanks. This is very helpful. I foresee some minor tweaking for 3.5 along these lines. Move spell books earlier and maybe increase stack size for ?phase. The drop rates for these items haven't been changed, so the same issues occurred in earlier versions. They might have been less noticeable because of better ego drops.

Did you find healing potion drops acceptable?

There might be ways to improve this besides just increasing drop rates. For example, 3.5 will allow us to create special rooms that drop items with specific tvals. Right now the only rooms that take advantage of this option are the "larder" which has food items and the "library" which has scrolls. I was thinking of making a temple room for priest books, a magician's something or the other for spell books and a laboratory for potions. We can then tune the probabilities so that the spell-book rooms show up reasonably often.

A third option would be the long standing desire to give priests and mage monsters preferential drops for spell books. But this would be harder to implement.

A fourth option would be to increase floor drops of key items *only* for ironman games. I think the game does this with food already, increasing floor drops of food for ironman games. Automatically creating one floor drop of a priest or magic-book per level in addition to the normal floor items would be a pretty easy fix.

A fifth option, which probably should also be considered is to give ironman characters more money to begin with. Enough to afford MB1, 2 and 3. A weapon, some phase and healing, torches and food and maybe a sling too. Double gold for no-selling seems appropriate and 400-500 extra for selling characters.

Which of these options is best? Or perhaps something else?

If you play more 3.4 ironman characters, would you mind experimenting with different drop rates. We can definitely learn a lot with stats, but player experience is sometimes hard to replicate!

[Estie]

- Healing potions: obviously, priest isnt the ideal candidate to test that, but my warrior back then did fine.

- As for books, making them more frequent and most importantly native to shallow levels shouldnt really impact normal game play. My habit is to squelch any basic books not pertaining to my class as soon as I find them and I dont think that would change if they become more frequent. Class books will have to be bought much less frequently after such a change because they will usually be found in time; is that an issue ?

I dont think any special rules for ironman and/or casters are called for, nor is it necessary to provide them with all books at level 1. Having to do without a book for a level or 3 now and then is fine; just having to wait for 16 levels is ridiculous (OoD castable at clvl 9, found book at clvl 25). If I can expect to have my book 3 with a reasonable likelihood at lvl 9, I am not going to go to the trouble of the Farmer Maggot workaround.
Special treasure vaults should be fun, but for the current case it doesnt really matter wether the book is found on the floor, as a monster drop, or in a special room.

edit: Of course I can play with test versions; I have done so before if you remember. Just poke me when you have one ready.

[Magnate]

A third option would be the long standing desire to give priests and mage monsters preferential drops for spell books. But this would be harder to implement.

No - this feature's been around since 3.2.0 or so, it's just not very widely used. From monster.txt:

# drop: tval : sval : percent drop chance : min : max

So you can add a "drop:" line to magi and priests with a small chance of them dropping a random appropriate spellbook in addition to their normal drops. (Yes, they might drop two of the same book.)

I would recommend we make more use of this and see if it solves the problem. Higher-level priest and mage monsters could have very small chances of dropping dungeon books.

[Estie]

No - this feature's been around since 3.2.0 or so, it's just not very widely used. From monster.txt:

# drop: tval : sval : percent drop chance : min : max

So you can add a "drop:" line to magi and priests with a small chance of them dropping a random appropriate spellbook in addition to their normal drops. (Yes, they might drop two of the same book.)

I would recommend we make more use of this and see if it solves the problem. Higher-level priest and mage monsters could have very small chances of dropping dungeon books.

Dungeon book frequency is fine though; for this issue novices could get a chance to drop basic books.


Edit: I also played a paladin who died early; he found first book 3 at clvl 27. Its not vital for paladins as it is for priests, but telling for reference.

[fizzix]

I would recommend we make more use of this and see if it solves the problem. Higher-level priest and mage monsters could have very small chances of dropping dungeon books.

Let me play around with this tonight. The nice thing about this solution is we don't have to worry about affecting the drop rates of other items since these drops are additional item drops.

For convenience here's a list of potential magic book droppers with proposed book (uniques ignored). I'm thinking like 20% drop rate for all of them except for the group monsters which might be at 10%.
Apprentice 1
Scout 1
Kobold shaman* 1
orc shaman* 2
dark elven mage 2
gnome mage 2
master yeek 2
illusionist 3
dark elven lord 3
ranger 3
master rogue 3
ogre mage 4
mage 4
master thief 3
demonologist 4
enchantress 4
sorcerer 4
dark elven sorcerer 4
ranger chieftain 4

Here's priest book droppers.
Acolyte 1
Gallant 1
Kobold shaman* 1
orc shaman* 2
priest 2
dark elven priest 2
druid 3
paladin 3
dark elven druid 3
troll priest 2
black knight 3
ogre shaman 3
spirit naga 4
mystic 4
death knight 4
necromancer 4
patriarch 4
knight templar 4
master mystic 4
grand master mystic 4


* not sure whether to make the orc/kobold shamans on the priest side or the mage side. I'll lean towards priest because there are less of them. Alternatively, I can give them a 10% chance of dropping either.

[emulord]

I like your list. Id make a few changes tho.
Remove Dark Elven Lord, Master Thief, Master Rogue, Spirit Naga.

Ogre Mage 4->3
Mystic 4-> 3
Death Knight 4-> 3
Black Knight 3->2
Druid 3->2 // Also drops either
Paladin 3->2

Troll Priest 2->3

I like shamans having 10% of either
I feel like only very thematic creatures should have higher drop rates for books.

[fizzix]

I like your list. Id make a few changes tho.
Remove Dark Elven Lord, Master Thief, Master Rogue, Spirit Naga.

Ogre Mage 4->3
Mystic 4-> 3
Death Knight 4-> 3
Black Knight 3->2
Druid 3->2 // Also drops either
Paladin 3->2

Troll Priest 2->3

I like shamans having 10% of either
I feel like only very thematic creatures should have higher drop rates for books.

I'm not sure I agree with those changes. The point is that an ironman player should be able to find the 4th books with only marginally more difficulty than a town player. Remember the 4th book is available in town, there isn't much benefit to making it hard to get except to make priests/mages more frustrating for ironmen.

The dark elven lord casts fire bolt and ice bolt which is why they're included. Spirit naga casts blind, darkness, heal and mind_blast so it seems likely that they should have a book. The rogues and thieves are more tenuous, and I could see not giving them books drops.

[Magnate]

I'm not sure I agree with those changes. The point is that an ironman player should be able to find the 4th books with only marginally more difficulty than a town player. Remember the 4th book is available in town, there isn't much benefit to making it hard to get except to make priests/mages more frustrating for ironmen.

The dark elven lord casts fire bolt and ice bolt which is why they're included. Spirit naga casts blind, darkness, heal and mind_blast so it seems likely that they should have a book. The rogues and thieves are more tenuous, and I could see not giving them books drops.

I like the original list, but don't like that each drops one exact book (even with only 10 or 20% chance). I'd like to see them drop the book below as well, so it's 20% chance of book 1 OR 2 (or books 2or3 or 3or4). It feels too easy to make them only drop a specific book.