[3.4] Iron Helm of Rantaur [7, +20]...

[PowerWyrm]

... without any other ability.

I think that at least one guaranteed ability (even some crappy feather falling or such) should be granted to weapons/armor parts regardless of improved tohit/todam/toac. Otherwise such items don't really feel like randarts...

[Mikko Lehtinen]

I like randarts without abilities. I find they somehow bring flavour and realism to the game.

[Philip]

Well, it has a AC higher than most other helms, cannot be damaged/destroyed and has a save against disenchantment. Nevertheless, this helm is a worse helm than any ego item and is worthless unless found at dlvl 5. I wonder what it was based on? A cursed artifact, perhaps? Gorlim, or something? If that is the case, I suggest cursed artifacts inherit bonuses and penalties seperately from each other and not have them added.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

How important is AC in vanilla? I know I'd be happy to wear that helm in Halls of Mist.

[Philip]

Utterly irrelevant, actually. Only in a long fight does AC gain any sort of marginal utility. It doesn't really reduce damage, just makes monsters more likely to miss you, and not by much. AC is a tie-breaker at best when comparing equipment.

[Timo Pietilä]

Utterly irrelevant, actually.

...after you have gain the first 50 or so AC. It reduces melee damage as well as reduces chances monsters hit you, so you do want some AC. Especially early you will notice quite big difference when fighting orcs with and without good armor.

Later 50+ AC is tiny. Like really tiny. So tiny that it is hard to gain with other things you want from armors (resistances & protections & abilities). O would gladly swap [7, +20] helmet to Lordliness Crown [0, +10] <+1> without thinking twice in Angband.

I think AC damage reduction caps somewhere in 200AC, can't just now remember how big portion of damage it reduces.

[AnonymousHero]

I think I had a similar find in a recent game. However, my instance of this had something ridiculous like +80 AC (but very low base AC)... and perhaps a light radius of 1.

[Malak Darkhunter]

...after you have gain the first 50 or so AC. It reduces melee damage as well as reduces chances monsters hit you, so you do want some AC. Especially early you will notice quite big difference when fighting orcs with and without good armor.

Later 50+ AC is tiny. Like really tiny. So tiny that it is hard to gain with other things you want from armors (resistances & protections & abilities). O would gladly swap [7, +20] helmet to Lordliness Crown [0, +10] <+1> without thinking twice in Angband.

I think AC damage reduction caps somewhere in 200AC, can't just now remember how big portion of damage it reduces.

So I'm kind of curious, but why have a AC damage cap at all? Let's suppose you had a very high armour class already close to 200, which is pretty high, and then you eat a mushroom of stoneskin, that adds a lot more to your armour class yet slows you down....kind of misleading don't you think? you actualy hurt yourself more by trying to up your armour class at the cost of slowing yourself down, new players certainly wouldn't understand this or that there is a damage cap at all.

[Timo Pietilä]

So I'm kind of curious, but why have a AC damage cap at all? Let's suppose you had a very high armour class already close to 200, which is pretty high, and then you eat a mushroom of stoneskin, that adds a lot more to your armour class yet slows you down....kind of misleading don't you think? you actualy hurt yourself more by trying to up your armour class at the cost of slowing yourself down, new players certainly wouldn't understand this or that there is a damage cap at all.

AC does also affect the chance monsters hit you, and I think that doesn't have any cap (except 5% time they hit you no matter how low or high you AC is, and also 5% of time they miss you no matter how low your AC is IIRC).

AC gain you get from stoneskin is not worth the speed penalty in current system. One point of speed is worth about million points of AC in my book unless you are practically naked without that bonus. That mushroom is junk in my book. AC is about as worthless as searching (again unless you are nearly naked without).

[Derakon]

Timo, I suggest you try playing a game where the armor is modded to only give half the AC it usually does, and see how that affects the game.

The effects of AC are pretty subtle, but they're also meaningful. Going with a low AC makes melee considerably more dangerous. The problem is that it's hard to consider the marginal benefit of increasing your AC by, say, 10%; it's like getting a single speed point. You know it's good, but it doesn't seem to affect your game in any obvious way.

[Timo Pietilä]

Timo, I suggest you try playing a game where the armor is modded to only give half the AC it usually does, and see how that affects the game.

The effects of AC are pretty subtle, but they're also meaningful. Going with a low AC makes melee considerably more dangerous. The problem is that it's hard to consider the marginal benefit of increasing your AC by, say, 10%; it's like getting a single speed point. You know it's good, but it doesn't seem to affect your game in any obvious way.

I said "practically naked" because after first few levels your AC without any ego-items is over 50 easily:

Leather scale: 20
Cloak: 1
Leather Shield: 8
Iron Helm: 7
Gauntlets: 3
Iron boots: 7

That's 46 without any enchantment bought directly from armorer, and it would be very strange game where you don't get any enchanted armor after just couple of levels down.

Also very early speed matter even more than later in game when you already have speed-items, so speed penalty where that +50AC would matter is way worse. +50 AC doesn't really matter with -5 speed against orcs.

[EDIT] tested, and +96AC (56->96) made melee-orcs practically harmless even with -5 speed against clvl 8 dwarf warrior (nearly regenerated damage faster than snaga managed to damage even without regeneration), so I need to revert this opinion. Later in game closer to stat-gain when you don't have speed, but distance attacks are common speed penalty might be much worse, but really early high AC does have meaning.

[LostTemplar]

High AC makes melee really very much less damaging but not at all less dangerous in lategame (It's danger is already zero, there are no killing melee attacks), however high AC warrior uses potions at much slower rate.

[Magnate]

High AC makes melee really very much less damaging but not at all less dangerous in lategame (It's danger is already zero, there are no killing melee attacks), however high AC warrior uses potions at much slower rate.

I don't think this is right. I remember Eddie complaining when I changed the AC scale that he noticed the difference when fighting the big endgame giants (greater titans and the two uniques) if he piled on the AC. Even if you have pConf, greater titans are still pretty terrifying to melee.

[fizzix]

I don't think this is right. I remember Eddie complaining when I changed the AC scale that he noticed the difference when fighting the big endgame giants (greater titans and the two uniques) if he piled on the AC. Even if you have pConf, greater titans are still pretty terrifying to melee.

Morgoth can sometimes do more damage with melee than with manastorm with low AC, a lucky roll, and failure to dodge the blast. Manastorm of course is much more consistent.

[Timo Pietilä]

I don't think this is right. I remember Eddie complaining when I changed the AC scale that he noticed the difference when fighting the big endgame giants (greater titans and the two uniques) if he piled on the AC. Even if you have pConf, greater titans are still pretty terrifying to melee.

Greater Titans hit to confuse, which means full damage thru regardless of AC. AC only helps to dodge blows not to reduce damage against those.

From the three Giant uniques, two have hit to shatter or hit to hurt -attacks. AC helps to reduce damage from those attacks.

Kronos only hit to confuse, so he is basically just a bit bigger "greater titan" for melee consideration.