Resistance to stunning

[Magnate]

I've already essentially decided what I want to do with hounds and pack animals in general. The only question is whether the changes stay on my personal branch/variant or get pulled into v4.

I'd support smaller packs in v4 - this could be offset by having slightly more monsters generated, to ensure that levels don't feel empty. There's room for a lot of other experimentation in v4 too - I particularly like your specified-escorts idea (enchantresses with dragons, rangers with dogs etc.). Much more like the monster ecosystems found in S/Un/etc.

[fizzix]

I think it's pretty clear that we have pretty much opposite opinions on this particular enemy. As for hounds in general, IMO they make an interesting challenge. Sure they don't drop anything, but again, they're there to make getting to the more lucrative parts of the dungeon more difficult.

Only true if they were actually guarding those lucrative parts of the dungeon. Since monsters are placed randomly, they're often just guarding nothing and serve as a roadblock to basic exploration.

And how are they overpowered?

Descend stairs into dark room filled with hounds, die after your first move. This happens to me at least once a game (edit: not the dying part, most of the time it's a weaker form of hound that doesn't outright kill me). I guess I could play connected stairs and scum floors until I land in a corridor with walls surrounding me, but that's not fun at all.

An individual hound is weak; it's only in groups that they pose a significant threat. So find a way to isolate them from their packs before trying to fight them.

Sure, you can do this. And maybe it's even interesting if you're trying to get to that item you see lying on the floor. But it'd still be interesting and challenging if there were 5 hounds or 10. There doesn't need to be 24 (average number for pack size). Then it's just boring. I'd rather leave and find another floor where the hounds aren't there.

I've already essentially decided what I want to do with hounds and pack animals in general. The only question is whether the changes stay on my personal branch/variant or get pulled into v4.

[Derakon]

Using destruction has its own risks, of taking out other things that you care about. And of course you use up your destruction charges. I don't usually have lots of spare staves of destruction lying around in case my current one blows up, and I save all my scrolls for the last fight.

I think it's pretty clear that we have pretty much opposite opinions on this particular enemy. As for hounds in general, IMO they make an interesting challenge. Sure they don't drop anything, but again, they're there to make getting to the more lucrative parts of the dungeon more difficult. And how are they overpowered? An individual hound is weak; it's only in groups that they pose a significant threat. So find a way to isolate them from their packs before trying to fight them.

[fizzix]

Pack monsters will also come after you sometimes if they are injured. I think they have to be injured, in a hallway, and have LoS to the player to do that.

Derakon: I don't agree with hounds making a navigation problem. This could be true for the earlier hounds, but not for the level 50+ ones, excepting ethereal. Mostly because packs of hounds can be trivially removed with _destruction. At a point where I'm capable of taking them on, I almost certainly have a source of destruction. And then, it's much better to destruct because killing them is incredibly tedious, reasonably dangerous, and they have no drops.

I have two problems with hounds. One is that I feel they are overpowered, the other is that they are tedious and annoying. It's ok to have the occasional tedious monster to deal with, and it's ok to have some overpowered monsters. But a pack of hounds are essentially on every level, even with the reduced frequency. I wind up spending way too much time dealing with them until I get destruction.

[Timo Pietilä]

Oh, I forgot, that FA already have better AI for packs. It also charge if @ is badly hurt.

I think this one is true for vanilla also. If your HP is low the pack behavior changes and they attack you.

[LostTemplar]

At least in FA I often farm time hounds for exp (lure one by one into corridor and kill in one round). Btw Tindalos things are a nightmare, especially for mages. They see you out of detection range (actually exactly at detection range, but unless you detect every turn you are likely to run into entire pack), and have pass_wall (so impossible to lure one by one and hard to be hit by ranged attacks). Probably second most annoying monster in FA (after unmagic storm).

Any other hounds are actually free exp in corridor. I admit, that hounds may kill if you teleport into them, etc., but they are also easy to kill, and give high exp (at least in FA).

Suggestion 1: if pack monster gets damaged it forgets the "group behavior" and charges at you.

Oh, I forgot, that FA already have better AI for packs. It also charge if @ is badly hurt.

[Timo Pietilä]

The fact that they choose not to enter LoS actually makes Hounds (including Time) fairly easy to dispose of if you're using a spellcaster. Simply pick your favorite ball-type spell and cast it in a square adjacent to the Hounds. They'll just sit there while you destroy them.

This is one of my peeves on current monster AI.

Suggestion 1: if pack monster gets damaged it forgets the "group behavior" and charges at you.

Suggestion 2: if you stay long enough in LoS range of pack monsters they again forget the "group behavior" and charge at you (no resting at corridor corner with gazillion hounds just waiting to get killed at room next to you).

[Timo Pietilä]

I've never managed a pack of time hounds in any way other than destruct/leave/banish. I have managed other hounds, although I need to be able to one shot gravity hounds to attempt.

Have you tried with high level char? They are quite manageable once you have enough speed to match them. It's not the breath which makes them so dangerous, it is the fact that they move so d*mn fast. Something like Chaos hound breathes higher damage (on average even with resist) and are a lot tougher to kill, but move slower so you can easily avoid being in LoS of more than one at the time.

Time hounds are weak enough for one-turn kill for high level char, so they pose no significant danger once you are in high enough level. If you feel that they are too dangerous, move them deeper. Plasma and gravity hounds stay at one-turn death threat at far fewer breaths (once you have enough HP) as long as you don't have stunning resist. That makes them deadly thru nearly entire game. Impact less so, because they are significantly weaker than those two.

Time hounds IMO are OK, but time vortices are just annoying. Same with unmagic. If I see storm of unmagic in detection, don't have speed to match and don't have disenchant resist it is time to leave level.

[Oramin]

I just took out a pack of Plasma Hounds (in 3.3.2). Bump up to +30 Speed with a Staff. Pop into LoS with a couple and shoot with arrows. If stunned, retreat around a corner and wait until not stunned. Annoying but doable with a Half-Troll Warrior with ESP and over 1000 HP. Next time I won't use arrows that get burned up while lying on the ground.

The fact that they choose not to enter LoS actually makes Hounds (including Time) fairly easy to dispose of if you're using a spellcaster. Simply pick your favorite ball-type spell and cast it in a square adjacent to the Hounds. They'll just sit there while you destroy them. I had no problems with my Dwarf Priest or my Gnome Mage. Of course, Teleporting into a pack of them is a different matter...

[Derakon]

The question is what do they add to the game? If the answer is, "they make teleportation risky" I can think of better ways to do that. I guess the bottom line for me is that it's not a fun mechanic at all in my games. I've never enjoyed it, and I don't think hounds were ever meant to represent the ultimate danger in the game.

They do more than make teleportation risk: they make navigating the dungeon harder. They represent a mobile no-fly zone, and you have to take them into account all the time so they don't blindside you. On the flipside, if you can manage to destroy them (entirely possible; they only have 330HP), then you'll have rewarded yourself with easier access to whatever they were in the way of. They make for interesting risk/reward tradeoffs, and they wouldn't be able to do that if they were less threatening.

[fizzix]

I have had hT Warriors taking out of time hounds, luring them into antisummoning corridor and onehitting.

But the pack of plasma hound took out my hT Mage as I teleported away from situation where there were demons and liches closing in, and black reaver making holes in walls. I got prompltly knocked out and killed, without any chance.

I assure you if those plasma hounds were replaced with time hounds you would have also been dead without a chance. Time hounds breathe 50% more frequently for twice as much damage. If you took enough plasma breaths to stun you to knockout, you would've taken enough time breaths to die.

You also can no longer lure hounds into ASCs because they have the pack AI. You must have been referring to an older version.

[donalde]

I've never managed a pack of time hounds in any way other than destruct/leave/banish. I have managed other hounds, although I need to be able to one shot gravity hounds to attempt.

The question is what do they add to the game? If the answer is, "they make teleportation risky" I can think of better ways to do that. I guess the bottom line for me is that it's not a fun mechanic at all in my games. I've never enjoyed it, and I don't think hounds were ever meant to represent the ultimate danger in the game.

I have had hT Warriors taking out of time hounds, luring them into antisummoning corridor and onehitting.

But the pack of plasma hound took out my hT Mage as I teleported away from situation where there were demons and liches closing in, and black reaver making holes in walls. I got prompltly knocked out and killed, without any chance.

[fizzix]

Honestly, they're less dangerous than time hounds. They are the same speed and have 2 weaker breaths both of which can be at least partially resisted. They're also 26 levels deeper. (assuming we're porting directly). Hit points are roughly the same too, Time Hounds average at 330, these guys average at around 345 or so. Pass Wall isn't terrible either because if you're clever you can convince one at a time to come after you. It's very tedious but at least possible.

[Nick]

Well, how about these as a replacement?

N:624:Hound of Tindalos
T:zephyr hound
C:t
I:130:10d69:30:40:0
W:77:3:0:7000
B:BITE:HURT:1d18
B:BITE:HURT:1d18
B:CLAW:HURT:2d6
F:FORCE_SLEEP |
F:INVISIBLE | PASS_WALL
S:1_IN_5 | POW_0 |
S:BRTH_NETHR | BRTH_DISEN | BRTH_TIME
D:"They are lean and athirst!"

[fizzix]

I've never managed a pack of time hounds in any way other than destruct/leave/banish. I have managed other hounds, although I need to be able to one shot gravity hounds to attempt.

The question is what do they add to the game? If the answer is, "they make teleportation risky" I can think of better ways to do that. I guess the bottom line for me is that it's not a fun mechanic at all in my games. I've never enjoyed it, and I don't think hounds were ever meant to represent the ultimate danger in the game.