[3.4 RC] Your light has gone out!

[PowerWyrm]

... and the torch I was wielding is gone. I know this is convenient for normal torches, but it was an ego torch of Brightness, which I wanted to keep a little longer than 5000 turns. The new refill system should probably be only applied for normal torches and not ego ones...

[fizzix]

... and the torch I was wielding is gone. I know this is convenient for normal torches, but it was an ego torch of Brightness, which I wanted to keep a little longer than 5000 turns. The new refill system should probably be only applied for normal torches and not ego ones...

Actually, I'd go the other way and not allow you refill ego torches. Or at least make brightness torches burn twice as fast.

Do you by any chance know the commit that changed the behavior?

[PowerWyrm]

Actually, I'd go the other way and not allow you refill ego torches. Or at least make brightness torches burn twice as fast.

Do you by any chance know the commit that changed the behavior?

Nuke the ability to refill torches:

https://github.com/angband/angband/commit/f4e1eb7b877cd093c4fee67724fd08062ed6aef3

Make torches disappear when they go out:

https://github.com/angband/angband/commit/ef784cb55085497ba0df63970f55c26858a71715

And the following commits changed a couple of things too...

[PowerWyrm]

Well at the moment the only ego type for torches is brightness, which is the same as a plain lantern but a little lighter. So it doesn't matter much...

Unless much more powerful types of torches are introduced, like torches of telepathy or immunity. Then those 5000 turns of fuel would be really precious

[fizzix]

Nuke the ability to refill torches:

https://github.com/angband/angband/commit/f4e1eb7b877cd093c4fee67724fd08062ed6aef3

Make torches disappear when they go out:

https://github.com/angband/angband/commit/ef784cb55085497ba0df63970f55c26858a71715

And the following commits changed a couple of things too...

Hmm, based on this I'm going to conclude that things are WAD. I think we should defer the decision of whether we should change torch behavior for ego torches to a later date. Does that seem reasonable?

If there's some profound disagreement, it doesn't look like it'd be too difficult to make an exception for ego torches, but I just don't see this as making sense.

[Derakon]

Isn't a torch basically a stick with oil-soaked rags tied to one end? It's not the wood that burns (at least, not for most of the torch's operation); it's the oil. "Refuelling" a torch ought to require a flask of oil, just like refuelling lanterns (and you should be able to refuel a torch using a lantern as well). Alternately we could have a new item, "oil-soaked rag", that would reset a torch's timer when applied to it.

Indeed, torches need not have a flammable handle at all -- think the Olympic torch, where the only flammable bit is the fuel. So it's not at all clear that the current behavior makes any kind of sense.

[fizzix]

Isn't a torch basically a stick with oil-soaked rags tied to one end? It's not the wood that burns (at least, not for most of the torch's operation); it's the oil. "Refuelling" a torch ought to require a flask of oil, just like refuelling lanterns (and you should be able to refuel a torch using a lantern as well). Alternately we could have a new item, "oil-soaked rag", that would reset a torch's timer when applied to it.

Indeed, torches need not have a flammable handle at all -- think the Olympic torch, where the only flammable bit is the fuel. So it's not at all clear that the current behavior makes any kind of sense.

Sticks and rags are readily available. Or at the very least, bones are present in great quantities. It's the fuel that's "of brightness." Every instance of torch should actually be "torch fuel."

In this case you have "fuel of brightness." Torch fuel is cruder than the refined oil that's needed in lanterns.

[Derakon]

Okay, I can buy that. Well, I can't, because it's not sold in the general store, but you get the idea.

The problem of course is that then you have the same problem with lanterns. A Lantern of Brightness should really be a bog-standard Lantern that's been fuelled with Oil of Brightness. But as far as I'm aware we have no way of tracking that kind of thing. So code-wise I don't know how you'd go about implementing that. I suppose you could make a special class of torch/lantern that's been designed to work with the bright fuel (and thus has an innate higher light radius, and can't use the normal fuel -- kind of like a sportscar), but that seems pretty hacky to me.

[fizzix]

A Lantern of Brightness should really be a bog-standard Lantern that's been fuelled with Oil of Brightness.

Not at all. The lantern is designed efficiently to provide for a better oxygen/fuel ratio to maximize brightness potential. Whereas normal lanterns are just a torch in a box. I do think that brightness lanterns should consume fuel at 2-5 times the rate as normal ones, but since fuel is only important in ironman games, it's not worth worrying about.

[buzzkill]

Not at all. The lantern is designed efficiently to provide for a better oxygen/fuel ratio to maximize brightness potential. Whereas normal lanterns are just a torch in a box. I do think that brightness lanterns should consume fuel at 2-5 times the rate as normal ones, but since fuel is only important in ironman games, it's not worth worrying about.

I'll agree it's the lantern not the oil, but for another reason. If we're going to refer to these as ego items, then I go with the extra brightness being a result of enchantment and not physical properties. In short, it's the magic not the oil or the fuel ratio.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

This thread reminds me of my own changes to torches. (Not saying Angband should do the same.)

Don't think about realism too much. It's a game. Do what's best for gameplay.

Eating food and buying light items consumes lots of player time in Angband. IMO it's just unnecessary tedium since light almost never actually runs out. Why not make all torches and lanterns permanent light items?

[fizzix]

Why not make all torches and lanterns permanent light items?

because, Ironman

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Good answer. Hell, having all those player options dramatically reduces game designer's options...

[Derakon]

Good answer. Hell, having all those player options dramatically reduces game designer's options...

Why do you think Takkaria waged a war against options?

[Timo Pietilä]

Not at all. The lantern is designed efficiently to provide for a better oxygen/fuel ratio to maximize brightness potential. Whereas normal lanterns are just a torch in a box. I do think that brightness lanterns should consume fuel at 2-5 times the rate as normal ones, but since fuel is only important in ironman games, it's not worth worrying about.

Depends of the build of the lantern, I have used in my military year a lantern that was practically equal to 100+W light bulb and could burn nearly a full day with single refill. Those things can be really bright and burn a very long time.

For this whole lantern vs torch debate, why not give torches a bit different ability: throw a lit torch to dungeon and lite up the spot where it stops. Could be useful to light up a room or a corridor early into game. Try same with a lantern and lantern breaks (possibly with equal damage to monster as oil flask).