Do you dive aggressively or slowly?

[Jungle_Boy]

I used to explore all of every level, then I discovered diving was more fun. Now I dive til it gets crazy then I die and start over, not really a winning strategy. Sometimes I play ironman so I don't feel bad about not taking any upstairs.

[HugoVirtuoso]

For me, it depends on the variant. If it's Sil, I dive like a madman. If it's Chengband or ToME, I slow down a lot and take full opportunity to explore the levels.

[Therem Harth]

In V and other single-dungeon variants, I take pretty much every down staircase I find, because the early levels are boring. Unfortunately (as described above) this usually gets me to a point at which I can't hurt anything, resulting in premature death (more often than not by quitting). Honestly I've yet to make it to the more interesting parts of V without save-scumming; I just can't be bothered to hang around and grind for XP, so none of my characters make it past level twenty-something.

(I might be able to break this pattern with a more powerful character, a Warrior perhaps. But I don't like the Warrior's lack of flexibility... Actually I don't much like any V class, but that's fuel for another topic.)

In T2, with its wilderness and quests, I have very different strategies...

- For melee characters, I usually run with Ironman rooms. I level up to ~level 20 in the swamps and mountains, then grab some supplies and hit the Barrow-downs, and look for GCVs and boss nests. My characters are lucky if they make it past dlevel 1 this way, but the ones who do usually become powerful enough to go straight off to the Sacred Land of Mountains (where they too usually die). They're very fun while they last though.

- For weaker characters, or ones that fight better with a bit of elbow room, I go with standard dungeons, small levels, and 98 random quests. I take Princess quests but generally skip Lost Sword ones unless they're not too annoying. By the time I get through the Downs, these characters usually have a ton of money and some impressive loot; and they tend to last a lot longer, since I hold off on the Land of Mountains and instead take town quests and wander about the more local dungeons... But eventually these guys also go to LoM, where the usually also die.

NB, this is probably why I've yet to win any *band legitimately.

[Fendell Orcbane]

For me it depends on how well I know the variant...the better I know it the quicker I dive. Asd long as I can at least detect what is around me and teleport anything away I'm fine. However sometimes things move faster than you and that has gotten me killed : )
Diving speed also depends on the gear that I have managed to find....better finds =quicker diving. Crappy drops equals slower dives. When I first started playing a few years ago I used to take forever to play and would grind endlessly. But that got boring and so I started diving more and more often.

[Shockbolt]

I don't follow a particular pattern, instead I enjoy the discovery part of the game as I go along improving my player character. It's not that important to beat the game, but more important to have fun playing it.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

I dive quickly until I feel like I'm pushing the limits of sanity, at which point I switch to a clear-what-I-can mode until I get some good gear, at which point I dive again. Of course, even in the second mode I'm still taking down staircases; just not as quickly as when diving.

I'm resurrecting an old thread because this playing style really intrigues me. I think that being able to play like Derakon does is perhaps the Angband's biggest strength compared to other roguelikes.

Let's the Brogue, the new kid that everyone seems to love, for example. You can't play Brogue like this. You have to clear levels in order if you want to maximize your chances to win, even if the levels are not challenging enough to be fun. (Halls of Mist is somewhere between Angband and Brogue: you have some freedom to control your speed of diving, but there are limits.)

I've a question for you fast divers. If you could modify Angband to be better suited for this kind of play, what would you change, if anything? Let's forget for a moment that Angband is supposed to be well-suited for many different playstyles, and concentrate on just this one strength.

[fizzix]

I've a question for you fast divers. If you could modify Angband to be better suited for this kind of play.

better suited for clearing or for diving?

for clearing - move more towards ironman style and reduce level number. Eliminate the preserve option.

for diving - increase the rewards for killing shallow monsters at deeper depths. Here's a recent example of this In 3.1 items on monsters were calculated as max(current_level, monster_depth) in 3.4 and 3.06 it is max(monster_depth avg(monster_depth, current_level)). so there's less reward for killing shallow monsters in 3.4 than in 3.1. You could also increase availability of free (i.e. floor) items. Also make diving easier by introducing easy ways to get to deeper levels quickly.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

better suited for clearing or for diving?

Diving. These two are often at cross-purposes.

[Timo Pietilä]

for diving - increase the rewards for killing shallow monsters at deeper depths. Here's a recent example of this In 3.1 items on monsters were calculated as max(current_level, monster_depth) in 3.4 and 3.06 it is max(monster_depth avg(monster_depth, current_level)). so there's less reward for killing shallow monsters in 3.4 than in 3.1.

3.1 system caused a kill all weaklings phenomenon:

Avoid everything that could pose challenge, kill that orc/troll/novice paladin. If monster level doesn't affect the quality of the drop then killing anything gives you same results.

It would definitely make diving easier, but would it make it more fun? I doubt that.

I would increase floor quality with depth a lot for diving game. That would both encourage diving and make it easier at the same time while keeping the challenge of the monsters. Not just vaults and pits, but general floor should have more items laying around. Especially good consumables (so that you spent less time at shops).

[Mikko Lehtinen]

3.1 system caused a kill all weaklings phenomenon:

Avoid everything that could pose challenge, kill that orc/troll/novice paladin. If monster level doesn't affect the quality of the drop then killing anything gives you same results.

It would definitely make diving easier, but would it make it more fun? I doubt that.

I would increase floor quality with depth a lot for diving game. That would both encourage diving and make it easier at the same time while keeping the challenge of the monsters. Not just vaults and pits, but general floor should have more items laying around. Especially good consumables (so that you spent less time at shops).

I like this analysis. For diving to be fun, it has to be risky.

I can see how making good potions and scrolls more common or to make them come in stacks would improve the diving game. But what's the real difference between more floor items and getting better items from killing easy monsters? Don't they lead to the same behavior, avoiding the difficult monsters?

Another question for divers. If you'd have to lock the options Preserve Artifacts and Connected Stairs to yes or no, what would be the more enjoyable setting for the diving game?

When I started to develop Halls of Mist I felt strongly that the easy escape option via connected stairs took all the fun away from diving. Even with disconnected stairs I sometimes felt that escaping difficult levels was too easy. Do you share my feelings? Or does the ability to escape difficult levels easily make the diving game more fun for you?

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Also make diving easier by introducing easy ways to get to deeper levels quickly.

Yeah, this one's a good thing for sure.

[Timo Pietilä]

But what's the real difference between more floor items and getting better items from killing easy monsters? Don't they lead to the same behavior, avoiding the difficult monsters?

Difference is that you need to go to object and not object to come to you and they do not respawn. Weaklings are more common than objects anyway, and they respawn.

Of course you could make some restriction how deep monsters appear so that deep there there are no weaklings. Imagine dlvl 4950' with basically only great wyrms, greater demons and greater undeads. A bit what we do for objects, not only minimum level but also maximum (with some randomness it it).

[fizzix]

Imagine dlvl 4950' with basically only great wyrms, greater demons and greater undeads. A bit what we do for objects, not only minimum level but also maximum (with some randomness it it).

I tried this several years ago. I set maximum level to min level * 2. It didn't quite work. The game was too slow and it was too hard to get needed consumables (even with all the DROP_GOOD flags removed). It could work but it needs some significant thought with respect to the balance.

[Timo Pietilä]

I tried this several years ago. I set maximum level to min level * 2. It didn't quite work. The game was too slow and it was too hard to get needed consumables (even with all the DROP_GOOD flags removed). It could work but it needs some significant thought with respect to the balance.

Each monster individually would be only way to do this. I would like to see orcs everywhere, and something like dracolich should never be too shallow monster not to appear.

Balancing that right would be huge job. Your point about too few consumables just increases my opinion about floor being a bit too poor source of items.

[fizzix]

Balancing that right would be huge job. Your point about too few consumables just increases my opinion about floor being a bit too poor source of items.

It's actually not that bad. It takes about 2 hours to go through the entire monster list and pick appropriate values (my experience is adding armour values).

I agree with you on the floor drops though, it took a lot of convincing of other devs to let me add the three measly extra floor drops in 3.4 vs 3.3. 3.5 will have slightly more floor drops if only because the extra templated-rooms sometimes have drops.