Pits/nests and monsters that can escape them easily

[PowerWyrm]

I've always seen pits/nests as monsters' homes, which they would not leave that easily. Now many monsters in these pits/nests have flags that allow them to leave the pit/nest at once when they see (or sense) the player: BLINK, TPORT, PASS_WALL and KILL_WALL.

In my variant, I've banned monsters with these flags from pits/nests, but now some of them lack the variety they had before (especially the new v3.4 pits with a lot of monsters that can cast spells). I feel that this isn't right, especially if the player is allowed to blink, teleport or dig inside/near pits/nests.

I'd like to come with an idea to fix this. What would people suggest?

- leave pits/nests as they are in v3.4: monsters can escape them, the player can escape at will and dig the walls

- ban monsters with BLINK, TPORT, PASS_WALL and KILL_WALL: this would mean rethinking most of the pits/nests to add more variety (at least 5/6 races should be available for each of them to choose from)

- make the walls around pits/nests permanent: this fixes the PASS_WALL/KILL_WALL problem, and prevents the player from digging the walls; then monster/player interaction is only done via the pit's/nest's entrance

- block teleporting inside pits/nests: this fixes the BLINK/TPORT problem, and prevents the player from teleporting out of pits/nests

[Goldbug]

I've always seen pits/nests as more like a village. When an intruder (in this case @) dares to come near, the villagers pick up their pitchforks and torches and stream out of the village in a homicidal rage (or in the case of jelly pits sit there oozing angrily).

I'm happy with things the way they are.

[ghengiz]

I've always seen pits/nests as more like a village. When an intruder (in this case @) dares to come near, the villagers pick up their pitchforks and torches and stream out of the village in a homicidal rage (or in the case of jelly pits sit there oozing angrily).

LOL! good one

[kaypy]

How hard would it be to add an additional wall type- something with "indistinguishable from granite to the player, but impervious to monsters"

That would mean critters would avoid trashing their village and would exit via the doorway unless either the player started knocking walls down or they got LOS for a teleport. (Critters with non-LOS teleport may take additional effort)

[Philip]

[snip]
That would mean critters would avoid trashing their village and would exit via the doorway unless either the player started knocking walls down or they got LOS for a teleport. (Critters with non-LoS teleport may take additional effort)

This looks like a good idea, but non-LoS teleport may not be as hard as it sounds. Of course the idea of some Quylthulg randomly moving about the level is dangerous and dumb, but having damaged monsters who do not have LOS try to cast a random spell, but one not requiring a target(summoning spells, heal spells, movement spells). Maybe if such a spell is not found the monster could try to shriek. If impossible and it can move it does so in a random direction or something. One of the things that could be tricky is telling the computer which spells require a target. This may require severe edit file changes, I haven't read any code.

IE: You try to hockey stick a Quylthulg. You start firing arrows at it, it responds by summoning something, you kill the summonee and start shooting at it, the Quylthulg teleports.

O already has monsters healing up when outside LoS. Maybe that could be added with this. Or is that too evil? It would almost certainly require monster mana, which may be too much hassle. It would certainly require a change to AI, presumably an added edit file and a modified monster.txt file or something.

Post if you think this requires a thread of its own, don't respond if you think it's a bad idea(s).

[will_asher]

This looks like a good idea, but non-LoS teleport may not be as hard as it sounds. Of course the idea of some Quylthulg randomly moving about the level is dangerous and dumb, but having damaged monsters who do not have LOS try to cast a random spell, but one not requiring a target(summoning spells, heal spells, movement spells). Maybe if such a spell is not found the monster could try to shriek. If impossible and it can move it does so in a random direction or something. One of the things that could be tricky is telling the computer which spells require a target.

In DAJ, monsters are allowed to cast certain spells from out of line of sight. There's a flagset for the spells which a monster is allowed to cast from out of line of sight (or while unaware of the PC). I didn't change the monster AI significantly, and it works fine. Heal from out of LOS is hardly an issue since if you leave a monster and come back to it, it's going to be at least mostly regenerated anyway. Monsters blinking toward the PC from out of LOS is much more noticable.
These are the spells allowed from out of LOS:
blink / teleport
temporary invisibility
darkness
heal self
heal other monsters
set a trap (this spell has different effects when aimed at the PC or cast from out of LOS)
I don't allow summoning or hasting from out of LOS. That would be nasty.

[Philip]

In DAJ, monsters are allowed to cast certain spells from out of line of sight. There's a flagset for the spells which a monster is allowed to cast from out of line of sight (or while unaware of the PC). I didn't change the monster AI significantly, and it works fine. Heal from out of LOS is hardly an issue since if you leave a monster and come back to it, it's going to be at least mostly regenerated anyway. Monsters blinking toward the PC from out of LOS is much more noticable.
These are the spells allowed from out of LOS:
blink / teleport
temporary invisibility
darkness
heal self
heal other monsters
set a trap (this spell has different effects when aimed at the PC or cast from out of LOS)
I don't allow summoning or hasting from out of LOS. That would be nasty.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, you only allow spells like summoning and and haste in the round a monster has been damaged. How did you deal with the coding in DAJ? Maybe it could be taken for V. I'm not completely sure about blinking into LOS though.

[will_asher]

Sorry if I wasn't clear, you only allow spells like summoning and and haste in the round a monster has been damaged. How did you deal with the coding in DAJ? Maybe it could be taken for V. I'm not completely sure about blinking into LOS though.

Hmmm, allow casting summon or haste out of LOS only on the turn it was damaged... That could be a good idea...

[buzzkill]

Hmmm, allow casting summon or haste out of LOS only on the turn it was damaged... That could be a good idea...

That's an "excellent" idea. No more no-risk hockey stick.

[nppangband]

Hmmm, allow casting summon or haste out of LOS only on the turn it was damaged... That could be a good idea...

I have that in NPPAngband (the MFLAG_ATTACKED_BAD flag, or something like that). If the monster gets hit with spell damage while the player is out of sight (hitting the monster with splash damage, or pillar dancinge, tc..), it opens up some more tactical possibilities for them. This also holds true for melee, if the player melees the monster and moves away before the monster gets a turn (pillar dance, hack-n-back), the monster reacts differently, usually with a more nasty counter attack.

I like the idea of having them to summon in that situation as well. I might have to add that. The one issue that needs to be worked out is that the "Q"s would become extremely difficult to kill if they can summon when out of LOS.

[Philip]

I have that in NPPAngband (the MFLAG_ATTACKED_BAD flag, or something like that). [snipped explanation]
I like the idea of having them to summon in that situation as well. I might have to add that. The one issue that needs to be worked out is that the "Q"s would become extremely difficult to kill if they can summon when out of LOS.

I don't see the problem with Qs being hard to kill. Maybe you could have a spell that weakens summoning? Something that causes the specified monster to have to overcome a roll to summon à la protection from evil? This way, Qs aren't just stationary bags of EXP, they are supposed to be an obstacle. You should try to teleport them away, sneak up and attack it, hoping it doesn't get in many summons before it dies, or force them to teleport themselves.
If you allow Qs to teleport or summon when damaged out of LOS then you remove the hockeystick approach. As for Qlzzqlzuup, maybe it should be sort of a summoners battle, with you banishing, teleporting away his summons, teleporting him, killing the summons, finding him. I think it would add to the game. You don't have to kill them.

[buzzkill]

I don't think I've heard this one before. What is summoners started small. Their first summons would be on the weak side of the scale, with the fear-factor of the summonses increasing with each subsequent invitation. Once they reach the top-end I guess it could revert to random status-quo summoning.

I always hate it when something that is largely a pushover starts the battle by summoning ten somethings 10x as nasty as itself.

[Philip]

I don't think I've heard this one before. What is summoners started small. Their first summons would be on the weak side of the scale, with the fear-factor of the summonses increasing with each subsequent invitation. Once they reach the top-end I guess it could revert to random status-quo summoning.

I always hate it when something that is largely a pushover starts the battle by summoning ten somethings 10x as nasty as itself.

Eh, the general idea of summoning is that you get something bigger to do your work, but yes, a priest summoning Nar, the Dwarf gets on my nerves occasionaly. Summoning should not be as easy to limit, or as easy to do.
Maybe it should be limited to the sorceror type, high-end uniques and quylthulgs. Maybe some top uniques could summon kin, as I view it less as summoning, more as just getting a bit of help.

[PowerWyrm]

I always hate it when something that is largely a pushover starts the battle by summoning ten somethings 10x as nasty as itself.

The level of summoned monsters is somewhat limited by the level of the summoner. So it's really uncommon to have weaklings summon nasties, unless at high depths where you should be prepared for it. But of course, a mystic summoning time hounds is always a nasty surprise...