+1/-1 stat potions under-priced?

[Lord Tom]

These potions (Brawn, etc) are a great addition, but I think their relative gold value as compared to traditional stat potions (1:8) is pretty far off their actual game value.

Doing some back-of-the-envelope calculations to look at this, I figure 1:2-3 would be a more accurate ratio.

The specific value of each potion to you depends on your class and (a little) your situation. Some potion/class combo's essentially never make sense (eg contemplation for a mage). Putting these cases aside is reasonable since many valuable items, like rings of intelligence and spell/prayerbooks are only valuable to particular classes -- as a result such classes will simply ignore/squelch those items.

Now take the case where you have a potion that bumps a useful stat (say, STR/INT/DEX/CON) for a mage. Intellect will have a 60% chance of being approximately a wash (drains STR/DEX/CON), 40% approximately as good as a potion of intelligence (drains WIS/CHR). This is dumbing things down somewhat -- one could argue some of the useful stats are incrementally more/less useful, but I think on average this makes sense.

The numbers turn out the same for the other classes, which all have four useful stats, except warriors, who only care about STR/DEX/CON. For them, Brawn has a 40% chance of being a wash (drains DEX/CON) and 60% of being as good as a Strength potion.

That's the math as I see it, I'd be interested to hear what people think. It makes sense to me -- as a Priest I'd weight 2 potions of contemplation about the same as 1 potion of wisdom; certainly I'd MUCH prefer 8 contemplation to 1 wisdom! Further, I'd pay 8-12k for a useful +1/-1 in the BM, whereas the current 3k seems like a steal.

[Derakon]

When dealing with stat-swap potions, I rate stats as STR > DEX > CON for everyone except mages and priests, who value their spellcasting stats higher than STR, and care about CON slightly more than DEX. The reason CON ranks so low is that in the part of the game where you're drinking stat-swap potions, your CON is typically already low (that is, far away from the semi-exponential gains in HP you get from the 18/100+ realms), and you're low level (remember that CON gives you a per-level HP bonus). Meanwhile, STR directly impacts your blows, carrying capacity, and per-blow damage, and DEX directly impacts your blows; thus both of them are hugely important for anyone engaging in melee.

In the mid-to-late game CON becomes the most important stat, but early on basically all of your hitpoints are going to come from your hit dice no matter what you do, so it's not such a big deal. The only noticeable penalty you pay from starting with a low CON is that it takes longer for your CON to max out.

[Tiburon Silverflame]

Their game value is, in part, a function of your risk aversion and class.

Consider a mage who has the Int+ swap potion. OK, there's only a 1 in 5 chance you'll lose that point of Str. When you do, tho...it's bloody painful, if for no other reason than the drop in carrying capacity. It also means, you'll probably have to spend that much more time hunting stat boosters. If you're risk averse, you focus on the worst case and avoid it. If you're not, you realize it's only 1 in 5 (altho -1 to either Dex or Con can be nasty as well) and live with it.

Class plays a role in that the significance of particular stats is class-dependent. Mage and priest are strongly focused on their casting stat; the boost to their casting stat usually outweighs the hit to any other stat. Others, notably ranger and paladin, don't focus on any one stat. +1 to their casting stat, at a cost to either Str or Dex, might actually hurt more than it helps.

[Derakon]

Which is why you wait to drink the swap potions until you have one of both stats you care most about. If your top stats are INT and STR, then you don't drink Intellect until you have Brawn, so you can cancel out any STR losses -- potentially leaving you with your INT at the same level as before, too, but oh well.

[Tiburon Silverflame]

Makes sense, but that also suggests any single swapper is MUCH less valuable than a single booster, and very much argues against making them 1/2 or 1/3 the price. I could maybe see raising the value to about 1/5 or maybe 1/4 of a stat booster, tho.

[bron]

wait to drink the swap potions until you have one of both stats you care most about

An interesting idea. What I have been trying recently is to stockpile the potions at home, and only use them when I have enough to reach the 18+ level. Quaffing a +/- potion right at 18 generally gives actual net gains to stats: you gain 2 or even 3 points, but only lose 1.

[ghengiz]

An interesting idea. What I have been trying recently is to stockpile the potions at home, and only use them when I have enough to reach the 18+ level. Quaffing a +/- potion right at 18 generally gives actual net gains to stats: you gain 2 or even 3 points, but only lose 1.

OTOH you can lose 2-3 points if the reduced stat is in the 18+ range...
a bit risky, but a nice idea nonetheless

[bron]

OTOH you can lose 2-3 points if the reduced stat is in the 18+ range

Nope. If the stat is >= 18/10, then it is reduced by exactly 10. If it is >18 but <18/10, it is reduced to 18. Since the gain starting from 18 is often 20+ and sometimes 30+, the gain is bigger than the loss. Starting at 18/26, the expected gain is still 20 points, and the expected gain is still more than 10 even up to a starting point of 18/60. With enough +/- potions, it should be possible to drive all your stats (except CHA) up to 18/50 or so. Even I have never wasted enough time to do this for all my stats.