Mage equipment

[Malak Darkhunter]

There's one area for variety I would like to see implemented, and that is artifact robes, mage staffs for the game. Too often, i see that mages generally go for the same end game kits as fighters. Adamantite plate mail wearing, large shield wearing, Ringil swinging mage, is turned into a warrior. i don't see it feasible to not be able to wear gloves because of a mana reduction cost, yet still be able to use a shield as a caster.

Now I can understand the want to build a character every which way you choose, and that is fine, sometimes I do that as well, but i would like to also be able to build a mage based on the robe wearing, staff carrying, figure of legend.

Robes of permeance are pretty good, but would like to see artifact robes- ( The Black Robes Of Sauron), (Saruman The White), ( The Grey Robes Of Olorin) to add a little excitement for a mage character.

Could Make staffs wieldable as quarterstaffs, I think it would be cool to see a mage wielding his quarterstaff of Teleportation, as a weapon instead of carrying it somehow in his backpack.

[fizzix]

I certainly agree that artifact robes are a good idea, and I think some other of the dev team agree. Designing new artifacts is fairly simple, so if you add some new robe artifacts and make a good case for them, you could very well find them in the game. (or at the very least, if the resistance to change is too strong, you can add them to your own personal game). Currently, a robe of permanence is fine endgame armor. So it's not like robes are entirely slacking as good mage gear.

Now, there's nothing stopping you from playing the game entirely as a caster. In fact, a while back I wrote a full game summary not using melee or missiles the entire game. However, I think forcing that decision on people is a bad choice. Right now, a mage has the most options of how to deal damage to Morgoth. They have the highest damage spell, they have the best magic device skill (so wands of annihilation are a legitimate way of killing him), if they find a good weapon they can melee, and if they find umbar and holy might arrows, they can use archery. In a given game, it's not clear which will be the most efficient. However, the more you scum for equipment, the more likely you'll find a weapon like ringil that makes melee the best option.

I think removing the melee or archery option for mages is a big mistake though. The reasoning is that your gear changes from game to game, so melee is always a little bit different. However, the spell books are not different. In every game you will get mana storm, and it will do the highest damage from spells. If mana storm was much more powerful than melee, then there'd be no difference from every super-powerful mage. They'd all play exactly the same. That's boring and kills replay value. Angband gets a lot out of replay, because every game nets you different gear.

There are ways around this problem, by randomizing spells, or forcing the player to choose between spells. But, I think the melee option needs to be there for all classes, and it needs to have the possibility of being the best option with great gear. (ringil definitely is great gear.)

[Antoine]

Now, there's nothing stopping you from playing the game entirely as a caster.

I wouldn't mind seeing an additional class ("Sorcerer") that was designed for pure magical offence. I think a lot of people would enjoy playing that class, particularly if it had a few choices of attack spells (low-, medium-, and high-end) rather than just one best spell option (if that's the case at the moment).

A.

[UglySquirrell]

Would it be possible to implement an offensive spellcasting item for the shield slot? Staffs or talismans that don't affect defence, but raise wisdom/intelligence or maybe add spellpoints and can be activated for spells. This way you could still wield a sword but would suffer in mellee if you chose to use them.

[Malak Darkhunter]

Would it be possible to implement an offensive spellcasting item for the shield slot? Staffs or talismans that don't affect defence, but raise wisdom/intelligence or maybe add spellpoints and can be activated for spells. This way you could still wield a sword but would suffer in mellee if you chose to use them.

Dragon Orbs would be cool Remembering old D@D game for dos back in the 80's.

[Malak Darkhunter]

You know come to think about it, instead of Iron helms, hard leather caps for mages, throw a few mage hoods in the game for added flavour. would be a neat item to go along with crowns.

Lol, i can see Takkira saying, "No i'm not adding it as an option".

[Magnate]

You know come to think about it, instead of Iron helms, hard leather caps for mages, throw a few mage hoods in the game for added flavour. would be a neat item to go along with crowns.

Lol, i can see Takkira saying, "No i'm not adding it as an option".

It's not proposed as an option, but as a bunch of extra caster-focused equipment. See ticket #1421 and the long thread that it links to.

[Derakon]

I wouldn't mind seeing an additional class ("Sorcerer") that was designed for pure magical offence. I think a lot of people would enjoy playing that class, particularly if it had a few choices of attack spells (low-, medium-, and high-end) rather than just one best spell option (if that's the case at the moment).

A.

The mage doesn't have one "current best" attack spell that he resorts to over and over again. In the early game, you have three different bolt spells which you use depending on the monster's resistances. Once you find Raal's, you get Rift and Meteor Strike (and a few other not-very-useful spells), and you switch between those depending on the situation. Finally, Kelek's gives you Manastorm.

But in addition to this you have good devices to use throughout, e.g. the ball attack wands, dragonflame/frost wands, and wands of Drain Life/Annihilation. Given that you never have as much mana as you want to have (a good thing), wands are an excellent way to spice up your offense.

[Magnate]

The mage doesn't have one "current best" attack spell that he resorts to over and over again. In the early game, you have three different bolt spells which you use depending on the monster's resistances. Once you find Raal's, you get Rift and Meteor Strike (and a few other not-very-useful spells), and you switch between those depending on the situation. Finally, Kelek's gives you Manastorm.

But in addition to this you have good devices to use throughout, e.g. the ball attack wands, dragonflame/frost wands, and wands of Drain Life/Annihilation. Given that you never have as much mana as you want to have (a good thing), wands are an excellent way to spice up your offense.

Personally I think we need to make magi weaker at melee and missile combat, so that more mage players come to appreciate your points.

[Malak Darkhunter]

Personally I think we need to make magi weaker at melee and missile combat, so that more mage players come to appreciate your points.

I agree with that, it's far to easy to equip fighter type armor, and find a good artifact weapon and cast haste self and just start melee massacring everything in your path.
In the mage's ability to melee and produce devasting spells, which stuns, and with greater speeds, the mage has the capability of outshining a warrior with high AC and speed. he is basicaly what I would call a swordmage.
Good name for a character class eh...swordmage.

[fizzix]

Personally I think we need to make magi weaker at melee and missile combat, so that more mage players come to appreciate your points.

I think all classes need to be weaker in combat. However in slightly different ways. Mages need to be weaker at the endgame, but no weaker in the beginning (if not a bit stronger). Warriors, Rogues, Paladins are fine with endgame combat strength but are way too good in the early game.

Here are the current intrinsic to hit values (not including strength, race or equipment bonuses.)

Class     Initial      addition per 10     final
------------------------------------------------
War       70           45                  295
Mag       34           15                  109
Pri       48           20                  148
Rog       60           40                  260
Ran       56           30                  206
Pal       68           35                  243

I would propose something like this:

Class     Initial      addition per 10     final
------------------------------------------------
War       45           50                  295
Mag       34           10                  84
Pri       38           22                  148
Rog       40           44                  260
Ran       36           34                  206
Pal       43           40                  243

[Derakon]

I think the term you want is "spellsword".

But the last mage I played really didn't have decent melee until very late in the game, as a consequence of me neglecting my STR and DEX stats in favor of INT (because, again, I always needed more mana) and of course CON. And it doesn't help that the mage has the worst melee modifiers in the game -- max 4 blows/round, terrible to-hit class bonuses. By the time I had melee worth writing home about I also had Raal's, and I only busted out the chop-chop when facing large groups of mooks, which would have been more tedious to kill with spells, not more difficult.

Melee is an option for mages, but IMO it's certainly not a default option. I got way more mileage out of devices and spells.

I don't see anyone else here citing specific examples from their own mages of how they aren't magely enough. Have you guys played mages at all recently? Frankly I think they're pretty good right where they are. Maybe the other spells in Raal's could use some tweaking (after all, how many variants of "big ball attack spell" do you really need?), but that's about it.

[Chud]

Personally I think we need to make magi weaker at melee and missile combat, so that more mage players come to appreciate your points.

I'd be fine with that. :-) You could go back to the old D&D restriction that mages may not wear metal armor, perhaps, and are limited to a maximum of one (maybe two) blows/round. That should discourage melee a bit...

[Xaxyx]

My experience with the mage I recently won with seems to have been quite different. I found my game to be extremely easy, almost effortless. I dove hard, faster than I'd ever dived before. Once I had the right set of tools -- -TeleportOther and a Telepathy weapon being the most crucial components -- I began clearing vaults, aiming mainly for +int and +con gear. Eventually, I had a full complement of books (Tenser's sitting quietly in my home), a comprehensive kit of various resistances and protections, boatloads of mana, and no-fail on various critical spells.

From there, I began grinding in the 90's, first for !Exp (the faster, more practical way to level as it turned out), then for consumables for Sauron and M, though as it turned out this was way, way overkill as I ended up barely using any. Between my sheer damage output and my ability to Banish at will, no unique posed any real threat to me whatsoever. My speed reached silly heights (+46 if memory serves), as my kit left both ring slots free and I had some decent boots -- and of course, I had Haste up at all times. I even explicitly made it a point to fight summoners out in the open, without bothering to use Rune of Protection. That includes Sauron.

Morgoth took a while, and I did rely on Runes a bit, though only out of sheer paranoia; I truly suspect I could have managed without them. Whenever he'd summon, I'd Banish, Mass Banish, and/or Teleport Other depending on the circumstance. At first, when I felt that things were getting dicey I'd teleport Morgoth away for a reprieve; eventually, I even outgrew this habit, and would just Phase Door, heal and/or mana up, plop down another Rune, and re-engage.

In short, once I reached a certain threshold, I felt in complete and utter dominating control at all times against all enemies. Nothing posed a threat to me. The only irksome threats -- Time Hounds and such -- were almost never encountered, since as soon as I entered a level I would just Banish vZWLUseQ etc. and wander around obliterating whatever was left. I used magic to destroy 99% of foes, even Morgoth; only very late in the game would I melee, and only against silly weak stuff that I couldn't be bothered to nuke. I won at character level 48, and strongly suspect I could have won just as easily at a much earlier level, perhaps even as low as 40. Upon request, I can upload a character dump.

Anyway, my point is that the gear I aimed for was indeed "caster gear" -- largely just for resistances, +int and +con. I wasn't at all concerned about gathering melee equipment, as I never once felt the need to revert to using melee to defeat my foes. Such items might be interesting for color and theme, but I perceive no direct need of them, from the perspective of game balance.

[Derakon]

Xazyx: generally, the impression I get is that mages are supposed to have an easy endgame, to make up for their more difficult early game. Priests are somewhat similar though not as extreme (having a slightly easier early game and a slightly harder late game).

If your early game was easy, then that should be fixed, but domination in the late game is pretty much a given -- Angband is in large part about picking your battles, and the mage has the greatest power to do this out of any class.

Why are we trying to discourage mage melee even more, anyway? What's so wrong about having a cliché-busting spellcaster that isn't completely worthless in a fight? I've done the glass-cannon don't-look-at-him-too-hard-or-he'll-break spellcaster in millions of games. Playing the fantasy equivalent of a pencil-necked geek gets old after awhile, so I quite like that the Angband mage is different. Anyway, as I noted above, melee is not typically the mage's primary damage source, so are further nerfs to it really accomplishing anything? I invite you all to go play a mage or two before making any changes, since I honestly don't think they're needed here.

(Not to sound like DOS350, mind you...)