Rogue strategies

[Magnate]

If you remove the ability to rely on object detection from most classes, might as well leave the rogue spell intact. Rogue can use this little extra. Not for "balance" reasons, rather to get different playing experience.

Yeah I was thinking that too. It makes more sense for the rogue to have this spell than the mage.

And yes, ?dObj should be dungeon-only and come in small stacks.

[Derakon]

The old games used to have Detect Object and Detect Treasure. This was pretty redundant so they were merged into a single item which was called Detect Treasure (since "treasure" doesn't specifically mean "money" but "things of value"). Somewhere after this point the rod was added.

If the rod is removed and the scrolls are made dungeon-only, the scrolls should probably show up in smallish stacks; a single shot of object detection isn't worth all that much.

[d_m]

If the rod is removed and the scrolls are made dungeon-only, the scrolls should probably show up in smallish stacks; a single shot of object detection isn't worth all that much.

Agreed. Seems like everyone supports this change.

[dos350]

i dont, plz no rage~

[Nomad]

On the subject of detection spells, why it was decided to merge the separate spells of Trap Location and Door/Stair Location into one? That seems like a decision that makes detection cheaper and easier for the classes who already get easy detection while leaving the warriors still stuck carrying multiple items to get the same effect.

Any chance we could un-merge those and further restrict which classes get which detection spells? I'd go with rogues being able to detect objects and traps but not monsters or doors/stairs, and vice versa for rangers; mages should probably get monster and trap detection but not the other detection spells, and priests/paladins should possibly only get detect evil. I think there really ought to be more of a trade-off involved in choosing classes when it comes to detection spells.

[Derakon]

Separating door/stair from trap detection doesn't meaningfully change gameplay unless you also remove access from one or the other spell entirely. Otherwise it's just a question of two vs. one turn; detection is almost never critical enough that this is a meaningful decision.

The main distinguishing factor for early/mid-game arcane casters is the fact that they have monster detection. Warriors, paladins, and priests don't. You could change that of course but I think that particular balance factor is okay as it is right now.

[buzzkill]

As long as we're on the subject, I think it may help spread the power curve a bit if various early detections were to be pushed back beyond DL10 or so, with an exception being made for mage spells.

The first ten levels can be survived the old fashioned way, by wandering around bumping into things. That's a bit simplistic, but you get my point, there's nothing terribly dangerous here. The stuff found on these level should be junk or near junk. Ordinary weapons and armours. The goal here would be mere survival and building your most basic un-enchanted kit.

Just a thought.

[d_m]

As long as we're on the subject, I think it may help spread the power curve a bit if various early detections were to be pushed back beyond DL10 or so, with an exception being made for mage spells.

This is something I've been doing a lot of thinking about also.

[bio_hazard]

Would it be possible to keep a single spell, but have it only detect one thing at low char levels, then add additional detections at higher levels?

And to make the classes play a little different, make the order class-dependent...

Mages (Traps -> doors&stairs -> Items)

Priests (Doors&Stairs -> Traps -> Items)

Rogue (Items -> Traps -> doors&stairs)

[Bogatyr]

To me the rogue is all about treasure (both items and gold) and stealth. I've always enjoyed a "targeted item search" style of play, I find the game already long enough without hunting for red stars to find what I'm looking for. So I do not find the rogue's detect object spell overpowered, I find it perfect for the rogue.

Another way it makes perfect sense: the rogue can know a very desirable object is in a crazy difficult vault, and decide to try to take it on pray his stealth holds and that the stupid blue dragon bat won't sneeze lightning and wake up Ungoliant. This leads to the sort of decision making that makes the game fun, removing that would neuter the rogue.

[Egavactip]

Rogues are like weak warriors, but they do have a few advantages:

1. Most races have at least pretty good stealth when playing rogue. Stealth is really powerful!

2. Only class to get detect treasure spell, which many have noted is way too powerful right now.

3. Probably best melee class who can cast Haste Self, Resistance, and Shield. That's a big advantage over warriors, who will struggle harder for double resistances, speed, and won't get shield's +50AC bonus. Not to mention Teleport Other, etc.

I just won recently with a Gnome Rogue and I didn't find it to be a particularly tough game despite not finding any real speed until very deep (maybe dlvl 80-90).

Yes, the last time I played a rogue, it was pretty smooth going (although I had an inordinate amount of speed--I was basically Breaking Bad).