Rogue strategies

[BlueFish]

What are some good rogue strategies? They seem to be the most difficult class to win with - is that everybody else's impression? Their strengths are neither offensive or defensive - just stealth, which is of very limited usefulness. They're the only class I've never won with... I'm looking for suggestions about how others play this class. Must I be more patient?

[Estie]

Rogues play like weak warriors, the only difference being that some inventory slots are filled with books instead of rods. The stealth, as you have observed, is no big deal - a highelven warrior is probably more stealthy than a troll rogue.

[BlueFish]

Rogues play like weak warriors, the only difference being that some inventory slots are filled with books instead of rods. The stealth, as you have observed, is no big deal - a highelven warrior is probably more stealthy than a troll rogue.

Yes, weak warriors, I agree. From that perspective, is it pretty clear that rogues are the most difficult class?

[buzzkill]

Stealth is a huge deal, or at least it used to be. Big stealth numbers turn the dungeon into creepy wax museum of sorts.

[d_m]

Rogues are like weak warriors, but they do have a few advantages:

1. Most races have at least pretty good stealth when playing rogue. Stealth is really powerful!

2. Only class to get detect treasure spell, which many have noted is way too powerful right now.

3. Probably best melee class who can cast Haste Self, Resistance, and Shield. That's a big advantage over warriors, who will struggle harder for double resistances, speed, and won't get shield's +50AC bonus. Not to mention Teleport Other, etc.

I just won recently with a Gnome Rogue and I didn't find it to be a particularly tough game despite not finding any real speed until very deep (maybe dlvl 80-90).

[Estie]

The "creepy wax museum" effect is indeed fun but occurs only late and with good stealth races. I recommend using one of those to get the best "rogue" feeling. As usual high elf is the best.

The detect object spell is imo not worth much. I got so annoyed by how often my rogues were fizzling it and ending up oom without having detected objects that I have developed the habit of just ignoring it and using scrolls/rods until the time when int has received a couple potion boosts. Basically, mages can free the inventory slot for that effect earlier than rogues.

I maintain that rogues are weaker than other classes, but its no big deal. Picking a weak race is more of a handicap than picking rogue.

[Xaxyx]

Has there been any progressive discussion on giving rogues some Super Awesome Power™ unique to their class? I believe some variants give rogues some sort of "backstab" ability, resulting in extra damage when hitting a sleeping enemy target. I should think it would be plausible to give rogues a balanced yet interesting advantage of this nature, perhaps by multiplying the damage dealt by the first blow in the round or some such. It could even be a ranged attack, I suppose. Spell seems a tad counterintuitive, though.

[BlueFish]

Rogues are like weak warriors, but they do have a few advantages:

1. Most races have at least pretty good stealth when playing rogue. Stealth is really powerful!

2. Only class to get detect treasure spell, which many have noted is way too powerful right now.

3. Probably best melee class who can cast Haste Self, Resistance, and Shield. That's a big advantage over warriors, who will struggle harder for double resistances, speed, and won't get shield's +50AC bonus. Not to mention Teleport Other, etc.

I just won recently with a Gnome Rogue and I didn't find it to be a particularly tough game despite not finding any real speed until very deep (maybe dlvl 80-90).

Why do you say "detect treasure" is too powerful?

[d_m]

Why do you say "detect treasure" is too powerful?

Well, most of big jumps in power I experience occur when I get new equipment.

In particular, looking for new flavors of potion (stat, augmentation, *healing*, life, etc), ring (damage, speed, power, etc), wands (teleport other, annihilation, other attack spells), staves (banishment, destruction, speed), etc. So with a basic "diving-esque strategy" if you're on a level and you detect a bunch of unknown flavors, it's worth it to try to get to them (whereas if you don't see any items it might not be). Finding a wand of teleport-other on dungeon level 20 can be a real game changer, for instance.

Other classes need to find rods of treasure detection, or use scrolls to detect items. (Priests eventually get detection and you eventually find rods of detection but those are much later.) But the rogue gets to do this pretty much whenever. Some of the critiques about Angband becoming too easy have been based on the prevalence of powerful items lying around on the floor for the taking, combined with the ability to detect those items.

When I have played rogues recently I have mostly used mana for various kinds of detection, and relied on archery and melee for most fighting. Thus, having mana tied up for monster/treasure/door/trap detection isn't such a big deal.

[Timo Pietilä]

Other classes need to find rods of treasure detection, or use scrolls to detect items. (Priests eventually get detection and you eventually find rods of detection but those are much later.) But the rogue gets to do this pretty much whenever. Some of the critiques about Angband becoming too easy have been based on the prevalence of powerful items lying around on the floor for the taking, combined with the ability to detect those items.

Rod of detect treasure didn't use to detect items. I'm not sure which version put that in the game, but I'm pretty sure it is after 3.X, and not yet in 2.X.

....checking 3.0.9 doesn't have rods of detect treasure. It has scrolls of object detection and treasure detection, and treasure detection doesn't detect objects.

How about removing those rods? That is one thing that had made game a lot easier, and it fits in general theme of limiting detection capabilities.

[Magnate]

Rod of detect treasure didn't use to detect items. I'm not sure which version put that in the game, but I'm pretty sure it is after 3.X, and not yet in 2.X.

....checking 3.0.9 doesn't have rods of detect treasure. It has scrolls of object detection and treasure detection, and treasure detection doesn't detect objects.

How about removing those rods? That is one thing that had made game a lot easier, and it fits in general theme of limiting detection capabilities.

This is one object I would support removing.

[Nomad]

What are some good rogue strategies? They seem to be the most difficult class to win with - is that everybody else's impression? Their strengths are neither offensive or defensive - just stealth, which is of very limited usefulness. They're the only class I've never won with... I'm looking for suggestions about how others play this class. Must I be more patient?

I always seem to get killed trying to play a stealth game with any of the traditional rogue races. I guess it just doesn't suit my play style, since I tend to try and take on anything that isn't an instadeath. I've found I get along with Half-Orc Rogues a lot better: they do have a -1 penalty to INT but also get +2 STR, so they play quite well as warriors that just happen to have a few spells.

[Thraalbee]

I find that stealth is not enough in the beginning to make the initial game easy - my rogues usually die young - but once you survive long enough to get access to Haste Self, Shield, Resistance plus the teleport spells, I find Rogues very attractive.

Of course for the final fight neither stealth nor having spells is going to make much difference but I think it'll be ok anyway although I've never made it past dL 93 with a rogue yet.

And I agree that rods detecting treasure is probably not adding real value to the game.

/Mathias

[fizzix]

This is one object I would support removing.

agreed. ?object detection should be dungeon only items as well?

The rogue spell of detect treasure should only detect treasure. Then detect enchantment actually is useful.

[Estie]

agreed. ?object detection should be dungeon only items as well?

The rogue spell of detect treasure should only detect treasure. Then detect enchantment actually is useful.

If you remove the ability to rely on object detection from most classes, might as well leave the rogue spell intact. Rogue can use this little extra. Not for "balance" reasons, rather to get different playing experience.