Decisions, decisions.

[gglibertine]

I'm at one of those points where you just don't know which weapon to keep. I've got STR 18, DEX 18/30, so I get two shots with lighter weapons. Right now I'm carrying a Dagger of Slay Animal (+6 +9), but I just found a Long Sword of Venom (+5 +6). Slay Animal is no great shakes, but I can't decide: two shots with +9 damage, or one shot with +6 and Poison Brand? How effective *is* that poison branding, really? I guess I'll just have to try both and compare the effects.

Which would you choose? I'm contemplating putting the long sword in my house until I can get my strength up enough to get a second shot with it.

[Paffa]

I'd definitely use the long sword, slays aren't that useful in a dagger's 1d4 die, even with one more blow per round. And most enemies in the beginning/midgame don't resist poison

There are always those enchant scrolls =) use them on that sword to get it up to +9,+9.

[aeneas]

I'm at one of those points where you just don't know which weapon to keep. I've got STR 18, DEX 18/30, so I get two shots with lighter weapons. Right now I'm carrying a Dagger of Slay Animal (+6 +9), but I just found a Long Sword of Venom (+5 +6). Slay Animal is no great shakes, but I can't decide: two shots with +9 damage, or one shot with +6 and Poison Brand? How effective *is* that poison branding, really? I guess I'll just have to try both and compare the effects.

Which would you choose? I'm contemplating putting the long sword in my house until I can get my strength up enough to get a second shot with it.

Assuming V, the poison brand multiplies the base damage by 3. So against creatures that don't resist poison it is 6d5+6+Str Bonus (is that 3 at 18 Str ?). So that's an average of around 21-22 damage. You could enchant it up to +9 to_dam, which would add 3 points to that. The dagger, against non-animals, is (1d4+9+Str Bonus)*2, or around 26 or so, depending on what the Str bonus is for 18 Str (which I've forgotten). And if you get a ring of damage the dagger will win by a lot. So the dagger beats the long sword even in the worst case scenario, and it burdens you less to boot.

I'd sell the sword. By the time you start finding stat potions you will very likely have found better ego weapons. Depending on your charisma you will get enough gold to either cover most of the cost of a staff of teleportation, or buy a good bow and enchant it up, two of the most useful things you can do in the early game. BTW, what race, class, clvl, and dlvl are you?

EDIT: I'm ignoring the issue of critical hits which might put the long sword over the top in the best case scenario for it- the heavier the weapon the more critical hits you will get. The Str bonus does matter here, so you might want to check it- the higher it is, the better the dagger is, so if it's less than the 3 I guessed that makes the long sword a bit better. But there is also an averaging effect from the dagger- it's less likely that you will miss completely in a given round, but also less likely that you will do max damage. I think it's better to have consistent damage output- it keeps things you can kill with one blow of the dagger from attacking you. Also, in the early levels a lot of foes are animals.

[gglibertine]

As it happens, I did go with the longsword and I'm glad I did -- it's definitely much more effective. Alas, though, I haven't found any enchant weapon scrolls, either in the dungeon or the town, as of yet. I shall persevere!

[Paffa]

My bad there, I didn't take STR bonus into account.

But the long sword w/o that STR bonus:

2d5x3 + 6 = average damage of 24, enchanted to +9 it'll be around 27. Note that some enemies do resist poison, the dagger is without question better against them

Dagger against non-animals

(1d4 +9) x2 = average damage of 23. Depending on the STR bonus at STR 18, the weapons are almost even, if the venom sword is enchanted to +9,+9

A nice damage ring will make the dagger better by far with that one extra blow.

[gglibertine]

See, I can never figure that stuff out myself. Math is not my strong suit.

So now I've got the long sword and a Rapier of Slay Evil (+6 +7). I get two hits with the rapier, since my strength is now up to 18/20. Against evil creatures, at least, the rapier seems to be more effective, but I'm not sure if it's worth trading in the longsword for it. What's the actual effect of 'slay evil'? Does it also multiply base damage, and if so, by how much?

[Pete Mack]

See, I can never figure that stuff out myself. Math is not my strong suit.

So now I've got the long sword and a Rapier of Slay Evil (+6 +7). I get two hits with the rapier, since my strength is now up to 18/20. Against evil creatures, at least, the rapier seems to be more effective, but I'm not sure if it's worth trading in the longsword for it. What's the actual effect of 'slay evil'? Does it also multiply base damage, and if so, by how much?

Slay Evil and Slay Animal multiply base damage by 2. The Rapier is the better weapon against about 1/2 of all monsters:

2x(1d6x2 + 7 + 3) = 34

A Rapier of Slay Evil is a a pretty good weapon for early characters. Even better would be a branded or +attacks weapon with low weight. But what's more important is to enchant your longbow. A +9 longbow gets

3 x (1d4+9) = 35

damage/shot. That's better than any of your weapons. You can handle a lot more combat if you aren't taking melee damage in return. (I only use much melee if I get 3 or more attacks at the beginning of the game.)

[aeneas]

My bad there, I didn't take STR bonus into account.

But the long sword w/o that STR bonus:

2d5x3 + 6 = average damage of 24, enchanted to +9 it'll be around 27. Note that some enemies do resist poison, the dagger is without question better against them

Yep, you're right about the 24... not sure how I came up with 21-22, and that does make the Long Sword slightly better against non-resistant creatures.

Either way, I actually think I'd want to sell both the dagger and the sword if I could find a light non-ego weapon with high +to_dam. Enchanting the long sword to +9 could take 3 scrolls, but it could also take 8 or even 10. Along the lines that Pete was talking about, for the same number of scrolls you could probably get a longbow to +6, and that would completely dominate either weapon because of the ability to hit at a distance. The only problem with this is that ammo is heavy, so for me lighter equipment often wins out over better, but heavier, equipment. For every class except warrior, archery is the way to go for a long time, unless you find a really nice ego weapon, and neither an elemental brand nor slay animal is nice enough for me to want to spend money enchanting.

[gglibertine]

Either way, I actually think I'd want to sell both the dagger and the sword if I could find a light non-ego weapon with high +to_dam.

The tragic thing is that I'm 25th level now and I'm still waiting to get my hands on a really decent weapon. I've got the longsword up to +9 +7, but I've yet to find a better HTH weapon.

Along the lines that Pete was talking about, for the same number of scrolls you could probably get a longbow to +6, and that would completely dominate either weapon because of the ability to hit at a distance.

At 700' my good buddy Golfimbul dropped Hard Studded Leather of Resistance and a Long Bow of Extra Might, and I also found a Potion of Augmentation (woohoo!), so things are definitely looking up, but I'm hesitant to dive much deeper before I have something better for HTH.

Usually I don't make it to this high a level without finding something a little nicer. Personaly, I blame Smeagol, the stingy bastard.

Edited to add: Woohoo! Gorbag the Orc Captain, who showed up at a mere 800 feet, dropped Dethanc. I enchanted it up to a +9 damage, and with my strength up to 18/48, I'm getting 3 attacks with it. Also found an Iron Helm of Seeing. Life is good, baby.

[aeneas]

Ah... the bow is a nice find... depending on the +to_dam, possibly a _very_ nice find. The thancs can be good if you get blows with them and find them early, but I usually want that slot for side-effects at that point in the game... Westernesse or Defender is what I am hoping for, generally. With the bow you really don't need to be able to do a lot of damage in HTH, though it's nice to be able to save ammo by killing lesser creatures in HTH.