new class?

[Tibarius]

I have a lot of fun with this game and i would like to contribute to the game with creating a new class or make an existing class more unique, by creating own spellbooks for the classes currently using the same books (either priest/paladin) or (mage/ranger/rogue).

The goal is NOT to make things easier, but more unique, interesting and fun to play.

But before i spend hours over hours with creating a new class just to hear later on "nice work, but vanilla doesn't need it / it doesn't fit" i would like to get a "go" from someone who has something to say

A dark/evil/demonic class is currently not available: like anti-paladin, necromant, witch, assassin.

The mages class leaves a lot of room for further - different magic. Sorcerer, Conjurer, Invoker, Elementalist, Arcanist, Battlemage.

[Tobias]

unique is the important word here.
If you can't see how the playstyle of your new class is different from the other classes, using only the name or at most a line of description, it has no place in vanilla.

Having some 100 classes and races, where even the spoiler files fail to give adequate definitions of the differences is the main reason why I don't play variants.

So my thoughts your class names invoke for me:
anti-paladin : Paladin dressed in black? But I don't use tilesets.
necromant : Mage specialising in player summoning which is not planned in vanilla.
witch : Another name for mage? Too vague.
assassin : a rouge with no-armor or no-heavy-weapon condition?
Sorcerer : see witch
Conjurer : see necromance
Invoker : see sorcerer
Elementalist : see invoker
Arcanist : see Elementalist.
Battlemage : people like to complain that the current mage is this.

The only concept worth thinking about might be an raistlin type mage in addition to the normal gandalf type. By adding more armor/weapon penalities .But it would be even more of a glass cannon.

[Magnate]

I have a lot of fun with this game and i would like to contribute to the game with creating a new class or make an existing class more unique, by creating own spellbooks for the classes currently using the same books (either priest/paladin) or (mage/ranger/rogue).

The goal is NOT to make things easier, but more unique, interesting and fun to play.

But before i spend hours over hours with creating a new class just to hear later on "nice work, but vanilla doesn't need it / it doesn't fit" i would like to get a "go" from someone who has something to say

A dark/evil/demonic class is currently not available: like anti-paladin, necromant, witch, assassin.

The mages class leaves a lot of room for further - different magic. Sorcerer, Conjurer, Invoker, Elementalist, Arcanist, Battlemage.

Lots of variants (I think O was the first) have more than just the two basic realms of arcane/holy magic. O/S have Nature and Necromancy, and other variants have still other realms (ToME has loads, IIUC).

Personally I'd be happy to see a third magic realm in V, but it would need testing in a branch first. It's not possible to reassure you that any work you put in will be automatically used verbatim, but if you create a new class/realm and put a playable branch up on github, I'm sure people will test it and give feedback.

[Derakon]

Vanilla has had the same races, classes, spellbooks, etc. since the early days. The spellbooks have gotten plenty of tweaks, and the classes were slightly modified at some point (giving warriors innate fear resistance and rangers an extra shot is all I can remember); the only change to the races is the addition of kobolds.

In other words, I'd be surprised if new classes were added to Vanilla at this stage. That's a classic "variant idea". I don't want to be discouraging; it's just that some parts of Vanilla are more static than others.

Incidentally, spellbook tweaks will require code changes, even if all you do is move existing spells around.

[Magnate]

Incidentally, spellbook tweaks will require code changes, even if all you do is move existing spells around.

Ultimately this shouldn't be the case though - the stuff in x-spell.c should be in an edit file.

I don't think a new class would be all that unlikely to make it into V. People were a bit surprised when the kobold came along, but it seems to have been accepted into the gang. (The earlier point about 100 races and classes which aren't very distinct was well made though.)

[Derakon]

Still, if you want to add new spell effects, that will require code changes.

[Therem Harth]

I did always like the idea of the Elementalist (IIRC from XAngband) - all their offensive spells are based on one element, or derivatives thereof. Also IIRC they were mediocre at melee. So some monsters would fall easily while others would give them loads of trouble...

[Tibarius]

input on a new class

Thank you all for your swift and extensive comments.

Originally posted by Tobias
unique is the important word here.
If you can't see how the playstyle of your new class is different from the other classes, using only the name or at most a line of description, it has no place in vanilla.

Agreed, a new class with just another name is obsolete. I have to play more then, currently i only know the mage class very well and rangers to some extent.

Originally posted by Tobias
Battlemage : people like to complain that the current mage is this.

I can't realy see how this should work. In the beginning levels a mage lacks str / dex to deliver more than 1 attack per round or to have required +dam bonus. So basically he will rely on magic to deliver damage - this situation stays the same until much stats are gained and he can get up to 4 attacks per round. But even with much +hit/+dam equipment i was never able to reach the damage level of my spells. That said, a mage only uses melee at the very end of his life, and only if he is out of mana.

Originally posted by Magnate
Personally I'd be happy to see a third magic realm in V, but it would need testing in a branch first. It's not possible to reassure you that any work you put in will be automatically used verbatim, but if you create a new class/realm and put a playable branch up on github, I'm sure people will test it and give feedback.

Of course, testing first is required. Of course it is not possible to promise me anything - but if the overwhelming response would have been "no need" then i just would have discarded the idea. Putting up a branch on github is something i have no clue about currently. If we hit a stage that serious interest is up, we can talk about this topic again.

So to shape out the ideas a little bit further:
Anti-Paladin: A Paladin that has discarded the holy and pure goals a paladin usually has. Not healing, benevolent effects are his mastery but he is forsaken from the (good) gods and strifes to bring havoc and destrucion. He could have powers like: blindness, slow, poison, unholy aura which add to his melee attacks (which is his main damage output). Could be gathered under 'dark magic'.

Necromant: My view on this class is that it is (like the anti-paladin) something considered 'dark' or evil / demonic. But this class would be focused on spells / rituals / curses rather than melee combat.

How could this be translated into a game mechanic? Something new would be 'blood-magic' where spells cost not only mana but life (hps) as well. Either a fix amount like 10 mana + 10 hps or a variable amount of hps (1/10 of your current hps) + 10 mana. (remember just first ideas to get a direction up)

More ideas later on ... my son is requiring me

[Tiburon Silverflame]

Beyond code changes for new effects...

In order to make those effects balanced, we'll almost certainly need new monster resists. And, at that point, one has to ask: does it *play* differently? In what way does an anti-paladin play differently from a paladin? Well, I could come up with one thing...since we're defining this as an 'evil' class, we flip OoD...that critters *without* the Evil flag, take extra damage. Now, maybe the angels are No Big Deal, but perhaps the demons are. There's no class in Angband that works in this manner.

So that, to me, is the first part. What will the class do, and how is it going to lead to a different game from what we have now?

[Derakon]

I really recommend checking out some variants, if you haven't already. Many of them have fiddled with alternate approaches to magic, and it'd be a good idea to get some idea of what works and what doesn't, so you don't repeat mistakes.

Regarding Vanilla's current mages and melee: it's true that they aren't much good at melee for quite some time. However, it's possible to use melee to take out "junk" enemies (e.g. orcs, zephyr hounds, basically anything with low HP that comes in groups) with melee after awhile, and it can be worthwhile to do so just to save on resting. Mages probably aren't going to use melee much against big targets very often, since as you noted their spells are generally more reliable. But they can if the situation warrants.

If you want a class that can do melee from the start of the game, then basically anything except the mage is the way to go. For arcane casters, the ranger seems to be pretty popular, since you can do whatever you like with him, more or less. Rogues have much stronger melee than rangers do, but they don't get any useful attack spells.

[Tibarius]

theme and game-mechanics

Originally posted by Tiburon Silverflame
So that, to me, is the first part. What will the class do, and how is it going to lead to a different game from what we have now?

To establish a new class indeed both questions must be answered. But from my point of view they have a 'natural' order:
1st) the Theme, the feeling of the class is described and fixed
2nd) the game mechanics with power details are fleshed out

Currently i was basically talking about point 1 and just went to point 2 with the description of how "blood/dark/unholy" magic could work in the way that HPs reduction per spell is required.

Another idea for #2 is, that mana of this class is not increased through resting but mainly through killing. Dependant on the xp the target is worth your mana pool is raised for a certain amount killing it.

That two ideas at least could lead to a totally new playstyle and feeling. I have some more ideas, but those do not fit to the dark/unholy theme of this class.

Originally posted by Derakon
I really recommend checking out some variants, if you haven't already. Many of them have fiddled with alternate approaches to magic, and it'd be a good idea to get some idea of what works and what doesn't, so you don't repeat mistakes.

Already agreed to play V more to know all available classes in V. While it is never wrong to gain wider knowledge, in this case about variants, it is also a question of available time. Of course it cannot hurt to know more about variants but i guess that once a detailed (and concrete) set of powers with game mechanic description is made public, that the discussion of it amoung the ranks of the veterans could shape it out and make it play-ready as well.

[Dughfo]

I'm pretty new to these forums, so I have no idea if this has ever come up, but what about something that specializes in damage over time? To my (admittedly limited) knowledge, there are no abilities available to the player that do this, and I think that would add a different dynamic to a class.