Distinguishing dlevel 60 from dlevel 90

[Derakon]

Killing all uniques is too much. However, making some uniques bosses of certain levels (one boss every 10th level maybe?) is an idea that I have wanted to see implemented a long time.

And what is the goal of this? Consider: if the unique is difficult at its "boss" depth (which presumably is what you would want), then the player is forced to stop and grind at whatever depth the boss shows up at, until they are able to beat that boss. Is that really desirable?

Back in the old days, we used to treat the game as if there were a Drolem boss at 2000', so we all scummed the shallower depths until we had poison resistance. This was painful. It was slow, boring, and really not very interesting. And fortunately it turns out it also wasn't necessary, since there isn't actually a drolem preventing you from descending.

If you want there to be certain guaranteed challenges beyond Sauron and Morgoth (who are not only part of the endgame, but the endgame in its entirety, and thus exempt from the above), then I would suggest doing it by making there be certain uniques that are guaranteed to show up once you descend past a given depth, until you kill them.

Thus, for example, once you hit 2000', Lokkak will be on every level until you kill him. You can avoid him if you like, you can go deeper into the dungeon, but he'll keep hounding your footsteps. Mix in the Stone Troll Triplets, Azog, Maeglin, etc. -- basically the deeper you go, the more uniques you end up having to dance around, until you've finally had enough and start fighting back.

I find that to be a much more interesting mechanic than a giant slab of beef blocking your path that you have to grind up to beat before you're allowed to continue.

[jens]

Thus, for example, once you hit 2000', Lokkak will be on every level until you kill him. You can avoid him if you like, you can go deeper into the dungeon, but he'll keep hounding your footsteps. Mix in the Stone Troll Triplets, Azog, Maeglin, etc. -- basically the deeper you go, the more uniques you end up having to dance around, until you've finally had enough and start fighting back.

I really like this suggestion :-)

[Nomad]

I really like this suggestion :-)

I don't. Possibly because the example monster is Lokkak, one of the very few I don't try tackling at depth, and I feel like he chases me around from level to level quite enough as it is.

I think enforced appearances of uniques would get pretty unfun, since we all have our pet hates that it's frustrating to bump into level after level after level. But it could work to have the odds of a unique appearing steadily increase the longer that you try ignoring them (maybe influenced by how far you are past their native depth, or how many times you've met them before) so it's not a guarantee you'll see them every single time but it does get more and more likely.

[Max Stats]

Killing all uniques is too much. However, making some uniques bosses of certain levels (one boss every 10th level maybe?) is an idea that I have wanted to see implemented a long time.

Awhile back, I saw an objection to the fact that Huan is one of the uniques you fight, given that he is actually a good, even noble, character. Reading The Silmarillion recently, I got the idea that Huan could be removed and replaced by Sauron in werewolf form and made into a quest monster, somewhere around DL80-90. As I recall, Huan had essentially killed Sauron but allowed him to return to human form and escape. That would fit with the idea that you kill him once as a werewolf and later as a human. When you brought up adding quest monsters, it seemed like a good opportunity to stick my idea in.

[Antoine]

Sauron in werewolf form and made into a quest monster, somewhere around DL80-90.

Great idea. I think even adding Wolf-Sauron as a non-quest monster and leaving Huan in would be an improvement...

A.

[Antoine]

But it could work to have the odds of a unique appearing steadily increase the longer that you try ignoring them (maybe influenced by how far you are past their native depth, or how many times you've met them before) so it's not a guarantee you'll see them every single time but it does get more and more likely.

Perhaps the best way to get this effect is to add a summoning spell which summons "low uniques" (those native to a much shallower depth) and give it to a lot of deep monsters?

A.

[SSK]

Awhile back, I saw an objection to the fact that Huan is one of the uniques you fight, given that he is actually a good, even noble, character. Reading The Silmarillion recently, I got the idea that Huan could be removed and replaced by Sauron in werewolf form and made into a quest monster, somewhere around DL80-90. As I recall, Huan had essentially killed Sauron but allowed him to return to human form and escape. That would fit with the idea that you kill him once as a werewolf and later as a human. When you brought up adding quest monsters, it seemed like a good opportunity to stick my idea in.

Oh good--I was mentioning this. I *hate* having to kill Huan--not because he's one of the real toughies in the game but because he's a hero of the Silmarillion really. Feels wrong every time. He definitely needs to be replaced by a baddie. Thanx Max.

[Remuz]

I really like this suggestion :-)

I like it very much, too. After all, the essence of the game is not really combat: it is much more about avoidance and fight picking. With several uniques following me around the dungeon, I would need to make a choice between taking my chances against them, or keep avoiding them for a while longer.

[Netbrian]

Thus, for example, once you hit 2000', Lokkak will be on every level until you kill him. You can avoid him if you like, you can go deeper into the dungeon, but he'll keep hounding your footsteps. Mix in the Stone Troll Triplets, Azog, Maeglin, etc. -- basically the deeper you go, the more uniques you end up having to dance around, until you've finally had enough and start fighting back.

And then when you turn off the game, you find out that Lokkak was coming from inside the house.

(I think this would be best implemented as having uniques that are very common after a certain depth, but not beforehand, rather than guaranteed.)

[Napsterbater]

I really like this suggestion :-)

All I know is that if Adunaphel starts showing up on every level after her native depth, I'll scream.

[Max Stats]

Great idea. I think even adding Wolf-Sauron as a non-quest monster and leaving Huan in would be an improvement...

The only problem is that if he is not a quest monster, it is possible to encounter Sauron as a wolf after killing him as a human, unless there is a mechanism added to mark both uniques as dead after killing the human one, which seems like an incredible kludge.

[EpicMan]

So make Wolf-Sauron a quest monster at DL60 (after toning down haun's profile, after all Sauron was not Haun's equal in the fight they had). You have too prep some to beat him, then you can dive down to lvl 90 to look for endgame gear.

Another quest monster would help give players a sense of accomplishment for beating the midgame, without adding too many grind-points to the game.