Permanently available items

[Djabanete]

I think that if there's a straightforward way to make boring gameplay non-optimal, it should definitely be done. In other words, I agree with Magnate that stores 1-6 should carry a specific selection of items 100% of the time.

The Black Market of course would lose all its charm if its stock didn't rotate somehow. If you wanted to totally eliminate townscumming you just make the Black market stock not rotate on its own, forcing the @ to bribe the shopkeeper to bring out new stock.

Or the BM could be a place where you trade in an item (preferably rare and valuable) and get back an item of comparable (but on average slightly lesser) gp value.

One (possibly zany) idea that strikes me is that stores' stock could be infinite and perpetual but randomized from game to game. This is a bit like the card game Dominion, where the tools available to players are different each game and part of the fun is taking advantage of the combinations. But this would result in harder and easier games and is probably variant territory --- especially variants with flavored towns.

For the purposes of serious discussion about Vanilla, just ignore all but the first paragraph 8)

[buzzkill]

This sounds to me an awful lot like "Instead of trying to figure out why people resort to crime, we should just focus our efforts on punishing criminals." I'd rather have a game that naturally avoids the temptation to do boring stuff, than a game that punishes me specifically for trying boring stuff. Not to mention, artificial "No, you shouldn't do that" patches tend to break immersion.

You're oblivious to the fact that some people don't need a reason, some people commit crimes just because they can (get away with it). Your laid back attitude toward punishment does nothing to discourage this behavior, nor would 'figuring out the ever-changing reasons', because the 'on the surface reasons' are largely irrelevant to the problem itself.

[Derakon]

IMO it's foolish to try to regulate scumming by eliminating the 'reason'. Eliminate scumming by harshly prohibiting it. Institute penalties for perceived scumming...

This sounds to me an awful lot like "Instead of trying to figure out why people resort to crime, we should just focus our efforts on punishing criminals." I'd rather have a game that naturally avoids the temptation to do boring stuff, than a game that punishes me specifically for trying boring stuff. Not to mention, artificial "No, you shouldn't do that" patches tend to break immersion.

[Jazerus]

Personally, I find the Black Market to be as exciting as the standard dungeon in terms of drops - that is, I feel the same satisfaction (or maybe even more so) when I find something awesome in the BM and drop a ton of money on it as when I find it on the floor of the dungeon. Restricting the power/randomness of it would trivialize money even more than it already is.

[buzzkill]

I've said it before, but it needs saying in this thread too: stores must have something 100% of the time or 0% of the time. Anything else leads to scumming and requires a Buyout button.

Scumming will happen, if you allow it. Players who will scum don't necessarily need a need a 'good reason' to scum, 'a reason' will do.

IMO it's foolish to try to regulate scumming by eliminating the 'reason'. Eliminate scumming by harshly prohibiting it. Institute penalties for perceived scumming or come up with some decent AI (based on randomness else code divers will prevail) that can detect attempted scumming and deal with it by freezing store stocks or whatever you deem to be suitable.

[Bahman Rabii]

Another good always-stock, high-priced item for the BM:
- Non-Ego mithril ammo, either unenchanted or lightly enchanted (no more than +10).

[myshkin]

If we do this, the player shouldn't have to wait to get it -- it'll just encourage waiting around on dlvel 1 until the proper turn comes around.

The order timer could certainly be tied to something other than turncount. XP is easy. Number of kills is somewhat harder, but still manageable.

[Netbrian]

Awhile back, somewhere, I remember a proposal to allow items to be ordered from the Black Market. You tell the shopkeeper what you want, you pay a % of the (probably elevated due to him having to "pull his strings" to get it). You wait a certain number of turns, then return to get your item. This could be an alternative if this proposal seems to generous.

If we do this, the player shouldn't have to wait to get it -- it'll just encourage waiting around on dlvel 1 until the proper turn comes around.

[Max Stats]

How about some always-stock items for the Black Market? Things that you can usually, but not always get there anyway, and possibly with increased prices.

Always stock:
- Ring of Free Action
- Ring of See Invisible
- Potion of Healing (at substantially higher cost)
- Stat gain potions (at substantially higher cost; maybe, taking up 6 slots is alot)
- Heavy Crossbow (at substantially higher cost)
- First dungeon books (at substantially higher cost; maybe)
- Potion of Speed (at *vastly* higher cost)
- Rod of Trap Location
- Rod of Detection (at substantially higher cost; maybe)

Never stock:
- Later dungeon books
- Ego versions of the big-three weapons or DSM
- Ego shooting weapons

Awhile back, somewhere, I remember a proposal to allow items to be ordered from the Black Market. You tell the shopkeeper what you want, you pay a % of the (probably elevated due to him having to "pull his strings" to get it). You wait a certain number of turns, then return to get your item. This could be an alternative if this proposal seems to generous.

[Bahman Rabii]

How about some always-stock items for the Black Market? Things that you can usually, but not always get there anyway, and possibly with increased prices.

Always stock:
- Ring of Free Action
- Ring of See Invisible
- Potion of Healing (at substantially higher cost)
- Stat gain potions (at substantially higher cost; maybe, taking up 6 slots is alot)
- Heavy Crossbow (at substantially higher cost)
- First dungeon books (at substantially higher cost; maybe)
- Potion of Speed (at *vastly* higher cost)
- Rod of Trap Location
- Rod of Detection (at substantially higher cost; maybe)

Never stock:
- Later dungeon books
- Ego versions of the big-three weapons or DSM
- Ego shooting weapons

[Derakon]

Refer back to the article that Susramanian linked. Boring but optimal play will happen if the rules allow it. Hell, as a kid I used to townscum the Black Market! I wasn't even looking for anything in particular; I'd just scum to see if anything nifty showed up. I doubt that happens except in extreme circumstances with more mature players though; I wouldn't want to see the Black Market removed.

So I guess the question we should be asking is: what items do stores sell that are useful in small quantities but unbalancing in large quantities? Those items should then either not be sold at all, or modified so that even large quantities are balanced.

Assuming that stores don't sell magical or ego-items outside the Black Market, the only potentially contentious items I can think of are scrolls of Treasure Location and of Mapping. Treasure location in general is contentious, but so long as scrolls are available in limited supply, it hasn't been a big deal. So stop selling them and switch to finding small stacks in the dungeon, like was done with C*W potions. As for scrolls of Mapping, they broadly render staves of Mapping obsolete, since 10 scrolls weigh the same as 1 staff (which staff is usually generated with fewer than 10 charges), and can't all be destroyed at once unless you're hideously unlucky.

Oh, I suppose the potions of Resist Heat/Cold in the alchemist are a problem, too, but that's because their durations stack. Fix that and there's no more problem.

As for the rest, let the player burden themselves as much as they think is appropriate for the utility they get from the items in question. We may want to make it harder to carry lots of weight anyway; currently the upper limits of carrying capacity are a bit silly.

[takkaria]

Indeed it does, but it doesn't remove the possibility of scumming for turnover of the occasional items until you get the one you want. So you'd buy out all the non-infinite items, scum dl1 for X turns and come back ....

I guess you're still right, but surely that's the point at which most people give up and just go back to the dungeon?

[CJNyfalt]

I've said it before, but it needs saying in this thread too: stores must have something 100% of the time or 0% of the time. Anything else leads to scumming and requires a Buyout button.

I approve this post.

[Magnate]

If every store has some infinite supply items, it removes the possibility of a buyout, surely?

Indeed it does, but it doesn't remove the possibility of scumming for turnover of the occasional items until you get the one you want. So you'd buy out all the non-infinite items, scum dl1 for X turns and come back ....

[takkaria]

I've said it before, but it needs saying in this thread too: stores must have something 100% of the time or 0% of the time. Anything else leads to scumming and requires a Buyout button.

That said, I don't mind what's stocked and what isn't. The existing setup isn't broken IMO, and it's unlikely to get worse whatever happens.

If every store has some infinite supply items, it removes the possibility of a buyout, surely?