Making the game harder, take five: stealth

[Estie]

Why not indeed. We've been mulling for a couple of years over how to make the game less dependent on gear, and thereby less prone to lucky finds (or unlucky games). The basic answer is to move more stuff to dependence on clev or dlev and reduce the dependence on objects. So for an extreme example, Ringil ought to be pretty nearly useless for a mage, as a melee weapon against tough melee opponents. Magi just shouldn't be meleeing balrogs, whatever gear they've found, and things which determine melee success (like to_hit, damage, criticals etc.) should all be quite heavily class- and level-dependent. (You'd still carry Ringil for the speed, obviously, because in this scenario the melee weapon slot is basically an extra utility slot for casters.)

Not that that's going to happen. But with the game the way it is now it's hard to argue against moving a few more things to be dependent on clev. (Like stat restoration, for example.)

Why on earth would you want to do that. Strategy ? Tactics ? Gameplay ? Sure, not bad. But the lucky find is the best.

[Napsterbater]

Why not indeed. We've been mulling for a couple of years over how to make the game less dependent on gear, and thereby less prone to lucky finds (or unlucky games).

I've never won a game, and so even that one time I found BoS+7 at dlev 8 didn't result in a win. I like the randomness because that means that each game can be different, if I find a bunch of stealth, I can start diving faster, if I find a bunch of con, I stand and melee more monsters.

If the game started making everything clev dependent, then that means all of my characters at any given dlev will resemble one another. That would suck.

[Magnate]

I always liked the fact that in Angband some things increased with level and some things didn't. If you want more stats, find more stat pots. If you want better gear, find it. This means that no two games are the same, ability-wise.

If we go this way, why not just make everything level dependent?

Why not indeed. We've been mulling for a couple of years over how to make the game less dependent on gear, and thereby less prone to lucky finds (or unlucky games). The basic answer is to move more stuff to dependence on clev or dlev and reduce the dependence on objects. So for an extreme example, Ringil ought to be pretty nearly useless for a mage, as a melee weapon against tough melee opponents. Magi just shouldn't be meleeing balrogs, whatever gear they've found, and things which determine melee success (like to_hit, damage, criticals etc.) should all be quite heavily class- and level-dependent. (You'd still carry Ringil for the speed, obviously, because in this scenario the melee weapon slot is basically an extra utility slot for casters.)

Not that that's going to happen. But with the game the way it is now it's hard to argue against moving a few more things to be dependent on clev. (Like stat restoration, for example.)

[Napsterbater]

I have always disliked the inconsistency that some skills increase with clev while some (stealth, perception, searching) do not. I would support a move to per-level stealth increases for all classes, like for the other skills. (But maybe stealth increases should be race-dependent as well?)

I always liked the fact that in Angband some things increased with level and some things didn't. If you want more stats, find more stat pots. If you want better gear, find it. This means that no two games are the same, ability-wise.

If we go this way, why not just make everything level dependent?

[Magnate]

Idea:
Modify Rogue to have 3 Stealth, but have +1 / 10 levels.

Today a rogue has 5 stealth to start with, and since no class increases stealth with clvl he has 5 at the end as well.

With 3 +1 he would have 3 to start with, and 8 at the end. This suggestion would only apply in the case of some nerfing to stealth eq. This would really differentiate rogues from the other classes. Any thoughts?

I have always disliked the inconsistency that some skills increase with clev while some (stealth, perception, searching) do not. I would support a move to per-level stealth increases for all classes, like for the other skills. (But maybe stealth increases should be race-dependent as well?)

[jens]

Idea:
Modify Rogue to have 3 Stealth, but have +1 / 10 levels.

Today a rogue has 5 stealth to start with, and since no class increases stealth with clvl he has 5 at the end as well.

With 3 +1 he would have 3 to start with, and 8 at the end. This suggestion would only apply in the case of some nerfing to stealth eq. This would really differentiate rogues from the other classes. Any thoughts?

[Timo Pietilä]

I think that people who don't think that stealth is too powerful has never played an extremely stealthy character, and this can be accomplished with almost and race/class combo. Super-stealth, which isn't that hard to come by, and doesn't prohibit you from being a killing machine also, is almost like cheating. Monsters just lie there sleeping as you walk through the dungeon and collect loot (except Z's).

For those rare cases I have managed to achieve that status I have enjoyed it. It didn't feel like cheating, just fun.

That is also pretty d*mn hard to achieve with Dwarf Priests BTW. It would require using non-optimal gear in many slots. You can achieve it, but it wont do you any good.

[jens]

At the moment I would say Angband is too hard at the beginning and far too easy at the end.

I feel it's too easy at the beginning, and then it gets easier...

Making stealth worse or harder to come by will make the start even more difficult, but not change the end game because by then you've got speed, resists, escapes and ESP/detection to allow you to avoid any potential danger.

Yes the start would become somewhat harder, but the start is much easier to balance than the end, so if it turned out to be too hard it would be easy to adjust some monsters in the first few dlvls and it would be ok again.

One of the problems with stealth today is that you don't really have to choose it, you can pick all those things you mention, and then get stealth on top. I want it to be an active choice: this game I want to play a stealthy character, so I will get less speed and lower damage output. Today you just get it for free. And I don't agree with you that it doesn't make any difference in the end game.

I'd say a lot of the changes to make the game harder have had this effect. For example now you don't find any artifacts until a certain point and then you suddenly find loads of them, so the game goes from very difficult to much easier in a few levels.

I agree, and I have a suggestion for egos and artifacts:
Change the formulas for how frequent they are, so we get a bit more in the earlier levels, and a lot less in the later. We will soon be able to ensure that egos come at apropriate dlvls, so an increased amount early would be nice to players, and not unbalancing.

For a lot of levels there are many monsters 2-3 times your speed who could kill you in one player turn (sometimes many times over). Then when you get enough speed this danger disappears.

If you want to make the game harder then you really need to create some sort of danger even when the player has good equipment.

One suggestion I made before is creating emergent dangers from monsters affecting each other with haste, heal, buff and clone spells (although I realise this is a huge amount of work).

I've been thinking a bit about that suggestion, and have some ideas, but as you say it would need some coding to get done.

[jens]

I like this idea--a middle category between helplessly asleep and tracking you to the ends of the Earth

Someone mentioned some variant where monsters can be awake, and walking towards some random destination. Borrow that code? I really like the implications of this mechanic :-)

[jens]

I think that people who don't think that stealth is too powerful has never played an extremely stealthy character, and this can be accomplished with almost and race/class combo. Super-stealth, which isn't that hard to come by, and doesn't prohibit you from being a killing machine also, is almost like cheating. Monsters just lie there sleeping as you walk through the dungeon and collect loot (except Z's).

Nice to hear there are some who agree with me :-)

Any chance we can change the language from 'sleeping' to 'stationary' or 'unaware'. Seems odd that everyone's always asleep.

I like it that ancient dragons are asleep, and some bears, maybe could dig up a few more that makes sense. But a roomful of sleeping orcs has always seemed strange to me...

[d_m]

Any chance we can change the language from 'sleeping' to 'stationary' or 'unaware'. Seems odd that everyone's always asleep.

I like this idea--a middle category between helplessly asleep and tracking you to the ends of the Earth

[buzzkill]

I think that people who don't think that stealth is too powerful has never played an extremely stealthy character, and this can be accomplished with almost and race/class combo. Super-stealth, which isn't that hard to come by, and doesn't prohibit you from being a killing machine also, is almost like cheating. Monsters just lie there sleeping as you walk through the dungeon and collect loot (except Z's).

Any chance we can change the language from 'sleeping' to 'stationary' or 'unaware'. Seems odd that everyone's always asleep.

[TJS]

At the moment I would say Angband is too hard at the beginning and far too easy at the end.

Making stealth worse or harder to come by will make the start even more difficult, but not change the end game because by then you've got speed, resists, escapes and ESP/detection to allow you to avoid any potential danger.

I'd say a lot of the changes to make the game harder have had this effect. For example now you don't find any artifacts until a certain point and then you suddenly find loads of them, so the game goes from very difficult to much easier in a few levels.
For a lot of levels there are many monsters 2-3 times your speed who could kill you in one player turn (sometimes many times over). Then when you get enough speed this danger disappears.

If you want to make the game harder then you really need to create some sort of danger even when the player has good equipment.

One suggestion I made before is creating emergent dangers from monsters affecting each other with haste, heal, buff and clone spells (although I realise this is a huge amount of work).

[Antoine]

excuse me, magnate ~ im talking to u here, please dont dodge my questions!!

why are u wanting to ruin the game of angband with ur personal mission?

Magnate's original post was a joke - you weren't supposed to take it seriously.

A.

[dos350]

excuse me, magnate ~ im talking to u here, please dont dodge my questions!!

why are u wanting to ruin the game of angband with ur personal mission?