Preserve mode

[Angelus]

I've been playing angband for a few years now (had my first win as a high-elf ranger last summer, since then I've also won as a hobbit mage and a half-troll warrior), though I only joined the forums recently.

I've noticed reading the forums (yes, I've been reading without posting for a good long while now...) that almost everyone seems to play with preserve mode on now, and I'm kind of curious as to why that is the case.

After my first win, I was looking to make the game a bit more challenging, so I tried turning preserve mode off. Much to my surprise, it actually did not make the game any harder-if anything, possibly slightly easier(very hard to measure that though-it was easier to get artifacts, but it also makes vaults much more dangerous). In fact, for me at least it makes the game a lot more fun. It allows me to be certain that a level is worthwhile, and encourages me to clear that level instead of just finding the nearest staircase and diving.

Special feelings tend to be rare enough that if you only stop diving every time there's a special feeling, you end up stopping about once every 5-10 levels all the way down to Morgoth. One thing I always hated about preserve mode was the way it encouraged diving to level 98 and then staying there until getting all the necessary equipment to take on Sauron and then Morgoth. With preserve mode off, by the time I get to level 98 I'm usually ready to go straight to Sauron. It makes the game feel much more balanced, because it gradually gets harder as you get deeper, and your equipment usually gets better at about the same rate as you dive. Usually during a game I'll miss 2-5 artifacts, which has never made a big difference in gameplay.

The game doesn't even really feel much slower played this way, and the turncounts on my last two winners have been pretty decent (around 450k for the mage, and 400k for the warrior). I also like the fact that playing this way means I never miss a vault (though obviously it makes vaults considerably more dangerous and costly-which in my opinion makes the game even more fun-greater risk).

So, basically, I'm curious as to what other people think of playing without preserve mode. I'm honestly not sure if I could go back to playing with preserve mode on, to me playing without it make the game far more playable and interesting.

Also, this is slightly unrelated, but if the devs could fix the bug that causes artifacts in monster inventories to cause special feelings in the next nightly, it would be greatly appreciated. The current nightly is almost unplayable because around level 40 about every other level produces a special feeling (and clearing that many levels is silly). And I'd like to encourage devs to maintain support for those of us playing without preserve mode being on, we greatly appreciate it

[Bahman Rabii]

I was a strict preserve=no player for years. On my recent comeback game I deliberately played with all default birth options, and I had to admit that I like preserve=yes a lot better.

The trouble with no preserve is that you sometimes hit a series of 4-5 special levels in a row, which you feel compelled to tediously clear.

If I am playing a class with great detection spells, or if I have a good supply of enlightment potions, this problem goes away and special levels purely make the game easier. When I am low on detection, I dread them as boring.

There is probably a more creative solution to preserve mode and artifacts, but I have not thought of it.

[Jazerus]

I find a better way to encourage myself to move quickly is to turn on nosell; due to increased coin drops you accumulate money at roughly the same rate as normal, but without the tedium of recalling after every decent level with a bunch of terrible ego items to get rid of. Using no preserve to encourage fast play carries a lot more risks than nosell.

[Magnate]

Also, this is slightly unrelated, but if the devs could fix the bug that causes artifacts in monster inventories to cause special feelings in the next nightly, it would be greatly appreciated. The current nightly is almost unplayable because around level 40 about every other level produces a special feeling (and clearing that many levels is silly). And I'd like to encourage devs to maintain support for those of us playing without preserve mode being on, we greatly appreciate it

I am really pleased that someone really likes preserve off mode. It was totally broken for many years, so I had been under the impression that nobody used it. In fact, I've had to persuade takkaria not to nuke it on more than one occasion!

Thank you for pointing out this bug - it's not trivial to fix because the object generation code (which sets the flag for the 'special' feeling) does not know if it's generating a floor object or a carried object, but it can be done. I've opened ticket #1466 for this, and I'll try to fix it for 3.3

Incidentally, how do you like the new level feelings in the nightlies?

[Timo Pietilä]

Incidentally, how do you like the new level feelings in the nightlies?

I have a question about those: Which one is for monsters and which is for items? They are not very clear to me.

It's like getting "you feel that this is a boring place and and you think will get bored here".

[Magnate]

I have a question about those: Which one is for monsters and which is for items? They are not very clear to me.

It's like getting "you feel that this is a boring place and and you think will get bored here".

As ever, there's a lot of room for improvement in the text!

The first one is for danger - it talks about safe / peaceful / uneasy / nervous / bad / dangerous / nasty. The second one is for loot, which uses bored / dull / worthwhile / lucky / good / excellent / superb.

All feedback is welcome.

[jens]

As ever, there's a lot of room for improvement in the text!

The first one is for danger - it talks about safe / peaceful / uneasy / nervous / bad / dangerous / nasty. The second one is for loot, which uses bored / dull / worthwhile / lucky / good / excellent / superb.

All feedback is welcome.

I never had any problems understanding which was which, but then I started by looking in the code

I've got one issue I'm not sure others will agree on: Using the word 'boring', it sort of suggests that I, the player, will be bored, and I'd prefer not to have the game suggest that to me Though I have not tried to think of any alternatives yet...

What is the reasoning behind having so many feelings as we have? Specially now that we have 9x9 I feel it's a bit too many...

[d_m]

I never had any problems understanding which was which, but then I started by looking in the code

I've got one issue I'm not sure others will agree on: Using the word 'boring', it sort of suggests that I, the player, will be bored, and I'd prefer not to have the game suggest that to me Though I have not tried to think of any alternatives yet...

What is the reasoning behind having so many feelings as we have? Specially now that we have 9x9 I feel it's a bit too many...

I agree that any feeling that sounds like "boring/dull/safe/quiet" should just be "". If that means you only get a danger feeling sometimes then that seems fine to me.

[Angelus]

Bahman-I rarely find that I get more than 2 special feelings in a row, even extremely deep in the dungeon. You might want to try playing without preserve again, as I think artifact/object generation may have changed a bit in the last five years or so. Sometimes I find clearing levels enjoyable, as it gives more of a feeling of completeness, knowing that I haven't missed anything on the level. But yeah, without decent detection it's a pain-but I usually find that by dl 30 or so I have at least traps and treasure detection, if not full detection-that, combined with teleportation can make clearing a level fairly quick. Usually I'll only find about one artifact before level 30, so I rarely if ever have to go into a special level with no detection at all.

Jazerus-I actually only play no-sell now...it sometimes gets annoying when I see something really valuable in the black market that I just don't have the money for, but it definitely reduces trips to the town, and makes the entire game more enjoyable.

Magnate-I'm honestly not a particularly big fan of the new level feelings. To me, one of the biggest problems in gameplay is the dynamic of going down to level 30 or 40, and then going straight from 40 to 98 without hardly stopping, and I think this will only encourage both diving and scumming. With separate level feelings, it really only makes sense to stop at levels with a high object feeling to monster feeling ratio (I mean, dying is not particularly fun, and OOD monsters can be annoying that way). To me, getting special feelings when an artifact is on a level tells me that the level is definitely worthwhile, without giving me an idea of whether or not the level is "safe." I also found when playing with them (though I only played for a short while before getting annoyed by the bug I mentioned with special feelings) that the game got significantly easier earlier on, because it vastly upped the chances of finding decent items earlier in the game. They're not *terrible* per se, but for me at least they slightly decreased the enjoyability of the game.

[Derakon]

I just turned level feelings off and never looked back. IMO they don't contribute positively to gameplay. If you want to know if anything good is on the level, then go explore the level to find out. Otherwise, if you miss something juicy, oh well; there's always another level.

Obviously this works less well when playing with preserve off.

[Jazerus]

The nightly level feelings at early depth often don't really convey how good the treasure is; while it was easily possible to get excellent and splendid feelings from about 1000'-2000' when safety feeling and treasure feeling were merged, I've started finding good artifacts on "You think it might not be up to much" levels in those depths - treasure feeling might need to be a little bit more sensitive than it is currently.

[Magnate]

The nightly level feelings at early depth often don't really convey how good the treasure is; while it was easily possible to get excellent and splendid feelings from about 1000'-2000' when safety feeling and treasure feeling were merged, I've started finding good artifacts on "You think it might not be up to much" levels in those depths - treasure feeling might need to be a little bit more sensitive than it is currently.

You are right that finding a non-junk artifact with that description is wrong. We're not far now from using the stats module to log level feelings over ten million dungeon levels (100k runs x 100 levels) - that will enable us to adjust the distribution better.

[Chud]

I just turned level feelings off and never looked back. IMO they don't contribute positively to gameplay. If you want to know if anything good is on the level, then go explore the level to find out. Otherwise, if you miss something juicy, oh well; there's always another level.

Obviously this works less well when playing with preserve off.

Maybe a middle ground could be no level feelings at all, except that when preserve is off you get a feeling that tells you an artifact is here. Simple, binary, somewhat avoids the annoyance of someone missing Ringil when they found the jelly pit first and assumed that was it. Too much unambiguous information though?

[Timo Pietilä]

Maybe a middle ground could be no level feelings at all, except that when preserve is off you get a feeling that tells you an artifact is here. Simple, binary, somewhat avoids the annoyance of someone missing Ringil when they found the jelly pit first and assumed that was it. Too much unambiguous information though?

Following that, maybe give just "ordinary dungeon" when player checks the dungeon feel (and nothing without checking) in all dungeons without something that really makes it different to rest of the dungeons, so that you get "There is something different here" with pits, vaults and huge number of high-value items or groups of dangerous monsters

BTW monsters should have different values like items do, not just "it is native here, it is not native here". Azriel is dangerous everywhere. Packs of time hounds can kill everything.

[jens]

I like the suggestion of not having a feeling if there is nothing interesting on the level. So in effect replace the two lowest feelings with "", and rewrite the but/and code to adjust for that.

If you don't like that, please refrase the boring feeling:
from "you feel terribly bored."
to "you feel it may be boring."

Oh, btw: there still is no need to stay on a level to get a feeling, you always get it.