Class question

[Zambaku]

I was thinking, is it possible to make a class that can't use weapons, like a monk for example? If not, can it be applied to races instead so a certain race can't hold weapons?

[Nolendil]

There are monks in ToME 2, Entroband, Hengband, ZAngband, FuryBand, XBand, Chengband and Gumband, so it's certainly possible
I'm not sure all of them don't use weapon though, I probably only tested them in Tome or ZAngband.

However, it would probably require some coding if you want to add one in V.
Not holding weapons is only the first step, you have to give bonuses to compensate it (like bare-hand combat damage increasing with level, spell-like system to increase toughness...).

[Zambaku]

Okay! Cheers for the help =)

[Derakon]

Yeah, you'd definitely need to modify the code to make weaponless combat viable. To-hit, to-damage, and base dice would probably need to increase with level, and you'd have to assign some arbitrary weapon weight to barehanded combat so you could get multiple blows (or come up with some other way to increase max blows, e.g. also with level).

[Magnate]

Yeah, you'd definitely need to modify the code to make weaponless combat viable. To-hit, to-damage, and base dice would probably need to increase with level, and you'd have to assign some arbitrary weapon weight to barehanded combat so you could get multiple blows (or come up with some other way to increase max blows, e.g. also with level).

There are two different questions here, to which the answers are:

1. Adding a class flag PF_NO_WEAPON is easy: it's about three lines of code in the right place that say something like

if is_weapon(o_ptr) {
[tab]msg("You cannot wield that.");
[tab]return FALSE;
}

2. Adding (useful and progressive) unarmed melee combat is a whole lot of work - it's certainly not impossible, but it's a different order of magnitude. Probably two or three orders of magnitude, in fact.

[Napsterbater]

2. Adding (useful and progressive) unarmed melee combat is a whole lot of work - it's certainly not impossible, but it's a different order of magnitude. Probably two or three orders of magnitude, in fact.

Especially considering that you would need to account for the resistances and sustains you lose by not having a weapon in hand. Maybe give intrinsics at certain levels.

[Nolendil]

Some info about the ZAngband Monk:

http://www.zangband.org/Docs/Character-Attributes.aspx:

Monk
    The Monk character class is very different from all other classes.
    Although they can use weapons and armor just like any other class,
    their training in martial arts makes them much more powerful with
    no armor or weapons. To gain the resistances necessary for
    survival at higher levels a monk may need to wear some kind of
    armor, but if the armor he wears is too heavy, it will severely
    disturb his martial arts maneuvers. 

    As a monk gains in experience he learns, new, powerful forms of
    attack and is able to land more blows per round. His defensive
    capabilities increase likewise. Fortunately, the amount of armor a
    monk can wear, while still fighting efficiently, also increases
    with experience.

    In addition, the monk's agility allows him to resist paralyzing
    attacks once he reaches a high enough level (but only if his armor
    is not restricting his movement). Monk's are able to move quickly
    and will become faster and be able to strike more quickly as they
    gain experience.

    The different sects of monks are devoted to different areas of
    magic. The typical monk is interested in the harmony of nature, and
    studies Nature magic. An idealist monk would select Life magic, and
    try to work to benefit his neighbor. But there are also dark
    monks, who practice Death magic. A monk will eventually learn all
    prayers in the discipline of their choice.

http://www.zangband.org/Docs/Attack.aspx:

=== Monk Attacks ===

The Monk character is designed to be a barehanded fighter rather than
using a weapon like the other Zangband classes. As a Monk's level
increases the number of attacks they get per round increases and new,
increasingly powerful attacks become available. Higher level attacks
have a chance to stun the Monk's opponent.

While the type of attack that a Monk uses for each blow is chosen at
random from the list of available attacks, at higher levels there is a
bias towards the attacks which do greater damage. This is because at
these levels, the game will roll several times for each blow with the
highest attack type chosen.


***** 
--- Monks Attack Types ---

Attack Name   Min.lvl   Damage   Stun    Notes
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Punch            1       1d4       -
Kick             2       1d5       -
Strike           3       1d6       -
Knee             5       2d3       *     Likely to stun male opponents
Elbow            7       1d7       -
Butt             9       2d4       -
Ankle Kick      11       2d5       -     May slow down the opponent
Uppercut        13       3d5       6
Double-kick     16       6d3       8
Cat's Claw      20       4d6       -
Jump Kick       25       4d7      10
Eagle's Claw    29       5d6       -
Circle Kick     33       5d8      10
Iron Fist       37       6d8      10
Flying Kick     41       7d8      12
Dragon Fist     45       7d10     16
Crushing Blow   48       7d12     18

I can't find info for ToME2 monks (the old site seems to have been deleted and navigating it via archive.org is not exactly easy).

All other variants I mentioned are either descendants of ToME or ZAngband otherwise.

[Derakon]

ToME is a descendant of ZAngband itself, so presumably it just went through the monk code and replaced references to character level with references to unarmed combat skill and/or dodging skill.

[Nolendil]

Oh ok, I didn't know (or I forgot) that ToME was ZAngband-related.

[Chud]

Especially considering that you would need to account for the resistances and sustains you lose by not having a weapon in hand. Maybe give intrinsics at certain levels.

Hmm. My first thought is that the easiest way to address this problem would be, well, not to. The resistances and sustains and whatnot that most characters get from good weapons are simply not available to you, sorry. If you wanted to then make the Monk less of a severe challenge class, you could compensate by introducing some items that are only usable by monks that fill some of those gaps. (Or items that are usable by everyone but dramatically more powerful for monks, if you prefer.) Adjust their frequency for appropriate balance.

[Magnate]

Hmm. My first thought is that the easiest way to address this problem would be, well, not to. The resistances and sustains and whatnot that most characters get from good weapons are simply not available to you, sorry. If you wanted to then make the Monk less of a severe challenge class, you could compensate by introducing some items that are only usable by monks that fill some of those gaps. (Or items that are usable by everyone but dramatically more powerful for monks, if you prefer.) Adjust their frequency for appropriate balance.

Play Sangband if you want to get an idea for how this can be done well. Two different unarmed combat styles, each of which has unique bonuses and abilities, and which (at high levels) provide some but not all of the resists one might obtain from a weapon.

[fyonn]

When I heard the question, I originally envisioned a class that refused to use physical violence and only used magic, ie no hand to hand combat at all. perhaps wearing armour and having to get all resistances that way, but no hand, or ranged weapon...

I'd also imaging them to be a priest class too, perhaps they'd get the priest spells cheaper and quicker and some special monk only spells? some level additions? speed maybe?

no combat is a big negative. even high end mages do a lot of melee...

[Magnate]

When I heard the question, I originally envisioned a class that refused to use physical violence and only used magic, ie no hand to hand combat at all. perhaps wearing armour and having to get all resistances that way, but no hand, or ranged weapon...

I'd also imaging them to be a priest class too, perhaps they'd get the priest spells cheaper and quicker and some special monk only spells? some level additions? speed maybe?

no combat is a big negative. even high end mages do a lot of melee...

That's what I meant earlier about the two different aspects to this. Creating a class that doesn't use combat is much easier than adding decent unarmed combat. Even stuff like giving them easier access to spells or other buffs is not too hard.