Some thoughts on Monster Memory

[Tobias]

I recently reinstalled my computer, and now have to play with empty monster memory again. This gave me some thoughts:

Maybe cheat_know should be a birth option instead. Additionally there might be an option for no ancestor recall, where you start your character with an empty monster memory.

This way the usefulness of -Probing stops depending on the last time you reinstalled. And while we are talking about them, why don't they find out breath damage?


On a related note, I am also a bit annoyed that I can't define autoinscriptions for the items I hadn't seen officially yet.

[Spacebux]

I recently reinstalled my computer, and now have to play with empty monster memory again. This gave me some thoughts:

This way the usefulness of -Probing stops depending on the last time you reinstalled. And while we are talking about them, why don't they find out breath damage?

Hey Tobias,

You can just start with a new savefile if you want to wipe monster memory for your next character.

Relatedly, I think it would be a nice FEATURE if monster memory were EDIT-able to some extent by players. I.e., sometimes you may want to augment information you know to be of value to you in future iterations.

-SBux-

[Magnate]

Hey Tobias,

You can just start with a new savefile if you want to wipe monster memory for your next character.

Relatedly, I think it would be a nice FEATURE if monster memory were EDIT-able to some extent by players. I.e., sometimes you may want to augment information you know to be of value to you in future iterations.

-SBux-

There have long been plans to separate monster memory out from the savefile, so that it is built up over the lives of all your characters, and doesn't disappear if you lose a particular savefile.

Nobody has suggested editing it before (to my knowledge) - that's interesting, and possible once it lives in its own file (though not trivial).

The cheat options will all be removed at some point and put into wizard mode, but you are right that knowing the monster info could be a birth option instead.

[Tobias]

[QUOTE]Relatedly, I think it would be a nice FEATURE if monster memory were EDIT-able to some extent by players. I.e., sometimes you may want to augment information you know to be of value to you in future iterations.[\QUOTE]
You can already edit the monster description in the edit files. That is, the flavour description.

This reminds me, I would find it usefull sometimes to place the flavour text at the bottom of the monster recall text. This way big M's description fits in all windows, without losing something important.

Maybe there could be an ancestor memory, in the score file, seperate from the character memory. This way you could chose to start with either empty, ancestor of full recall.

[Derakon]

The monster memory could generally benefit from a non-sentence-based layout. There've been some mockups made of grid-layout item recall, and something similar would do nicely for monster recall as well.

[Tobias]

The monster memory could generally benefit from a non-sentence-based layout. There've been some mockups made of grid-layout item recall, and something similar would do nicely for monster recall as well.

The sentenced based layout is great for flavor, and with the color coding it is quite easy to read. So I am somewhat unsure about a change like this, especially how the flavor text fits in.

The lack of flavor is already the reason why I usually play without randarts.

[jens]

The monster memory could generally benefit from a non-sentence-based layout. There've been some mockups made of grid-layout item recall, and something similar would do nicely for monster recall as well.

That I would love! It sure is a hassle checking the monster memory for something specific for a situation, like: can this monster open doors, or pick up items, etc.

[Derakon]

The sentenced based layout is great for flavor, and with the color coding it is quite easy to read. So I am somewhat unsure about a change like this, especially how the flavor text fits in.

The flavor text would of course still have its own short paragraph somewhere in the display. Everything else that is currently shown as a bunch of sentences is really just a listing of various values and strings. Is there that much of a difference, flavor-wise, between

It can breathe fire(1600), cold(1600), nether(550), nexus(400), and disenchantment(400)

and

Breathes:
Fire           1600
Cold           1600
Nether         550
Nexus          400
Disenchantment 400

?

[Tobias]

[QUOTE=Derakon;53319]Everything else that is currently shown as a bunch of sentences is really just a listing of various values and strings. Is there that much of a difference, flavor-wise, between..[\QUOTE]

mmm, the second layout looks like it wouldn't fit into the way I have my layout set up right now. But you are right, mostly. A table based display might also be harder to read for a beginner. We would need to test it.

And also, would it even make sense to segregate breath and magic, it is useless from a pure gameplay perspective that way. Rather:

                Melee                  Distance         Resist
Physical      4d4+5d5+6d6       1d4                50
Magic                                  500                yes
Fire            3d3                    1600              yes

But when I think about it I can't think of a reasonable efficient layout that wouldn't be empty for most monsters. And if the layout changes from monster to monster than there is really no advantage over sentences.
So if there isn't a quite good layout, I don't support change to tables.

[Max Stats]

The flavor text would of course still have its own short paragraph somewhere in the display. Everything else that is currently shown as a bunch of sentences is really just a listing of various values and strings. Is there that much of a difference, flavor-wise, between

It can breathe fire(1600), cold(1600), nether(550), nexus(400), and disenchantment(400)

and

Breathes:
Fire           1600
Cold           1600
Nether         550
Nexus          400
Disenchantment 400

?

This could be an improvement. I would like to also add that it would be nice if monster recall told you, in addition to what a monster resists, what elements you have determined are effective against a monster. Right now, the absence of an element being mentioned among a monster's resistances can mean either that the monster is susceptible to that element or that you haven't tried using that element on the monster. Currently, there is no way to know which is the case, unless you can remember or reason it out yourself.

This could be added to this layout in a similar way:

Acid: Resists
Fire: Unknown
Cold: Susceptible
Elec: Susceptible
Pois: Unknown

Or whatever makes sense.

[Derakon]

Presumably this would all be colorized, and there'd just be a big grid of the different elements, colored to indicate if the monster is susceptible/resistant/immune.

EDIT: I went ahead and whipped this together to give some idea of what I'm talking about. Annoyingly this is 25 lines long; it doesn't quite fit into the 80x24 display. There should be some opportunity to compress it though. The spell list seems the most likely to take up large amounts of space since I have only 3 spells per line -- Sauron has 20 spells, for example. Of course, his flavor text is only 3 lines compared to Morgoth's 10.

[Tobias]

Presumably this would all be colorized, and there'd just be a big grid of the different elements, colored to indicate if the monster is susceptible/resistant/immune.

EDIT: I went ahead and whipped this together to give some idea of what I'm talking about. Annoyingly this is 25 lines long; it doesn't quite fit into the 80x24 display. There should be some opportunity to compress it though. The spell list seems the most likely to take up large amounts of space since I have only 3 spells per line -- Sauron has 20 spells, for example. Of course, his flavor text is only 3 lines compared to Morgoth's 10.

Like I said, hard to compress. I like my monster memory in a subwindow on the side, which is somewhat small.
Looks very nice though, If my screen were twice as large I would love it.
You forgot the most importent stat though. Speed, movement rather, really needs to be moved to the other stats and color coded.

[Derakon]

The target size there is 80x24, i.e. Angband's default size. Compressing widthwise would be tricky, but compressing heightwise would be straightforward especially if you move the flavor text to the bottom so it's the first thing to get cut off.

Speed is at the top along with native depth, experience value, and HP. Armor should probably go in there as well; I forgot it.

[Max Stats]

Presumably this would all be colorized, and there'd just be a big grid of the different elements, colored to indicate if the monster is susceptible/resistant/immune.

EDIT: I went ahead and whipped this together to give some idea of what I'm talking about. Annoyingly this is 25 lines long; it doesn't quite fit into the 80x24 display. There should be some opportunity to compress it though. The spell list seems the most likely to take up large amounts of space since I have only 3 spells per line -- Sauron has 20 spells, for example. Of course, his flavor text is only 3 lines compared to Morgoth's 10.

This could cut a line out: Change

Melee:                              Elements: 
20d10 Hit to shatter                Acid Cold Elec Fire Pois Lite Rock
20d10 Hit to shatter                Fear Slep Conf Slow
10d12 Touch to drain all stats
    0 Touch to drain charges

to

Melee:    20d10 Hit: Shatter                 20d10 Hit: Shatter
          10d12 Touch: Drain all stats       0     Touch: Drain charges
          (more attacks here, if applicable) (more attacks here, if applicable)
Elements: Acid Cold Elec Fire Pois Lite Rock Fear Slep Conf Slow

Not sure if this change hurts readability, though. Also, you might be able to compact this to one line:

Other:
Bores through rock        Pushes past weaker foes   Regenerates quickly

To do that, you would need to compact the text somewhat and put it on the line beside "Other:" (this also depends on how may potential "other" attributes there are, and how many a single monster can have).

[buzzkill]

EDIT: I went ahead and whipped this together to give some idea of what I'm talking about.

I like where you're going with this. It's been on my wish list for a long time. I can't tell you the number of times I skimmed through a paragraph of monster recall looking for something in particular, not seeing it, and then finding out the hard way that I simply missed it.