Level feelings again (to use at all?)

[Chud]

It seems as though the general consensus is that level feelings are pretty much broken and have been for a long time, and getting them fixed (== meaningful) is on the radar but a ways off...

Given that, since turning them off altogether is a birth option -- is there any value in leaving them on at all, until they get re-done?

I always used to have them on, but after a number of characters getting killed by the superb-feeling-way-dangerous-thing-you-really-didn't-want-to-know-was-there, I'm changing my mind. Just curious what others think?

Cheers,
-C

[buzzkill]

I consider the level feeling to be pretty much random. I know that there is some reasoning behind them, but I've learned not to trust them much. That said, I like them. It gives me something to go on other than my own intuition when trying to decide how thoroughly to explore a level.

[Starhawk]

I like the level feelings as a barometer of how much of the level to clear.

"Peaceful" means that I fool around the minimum amount of time.

"You feel a little lucky" means that I'll probably go until I pick up whatever ego weapon caused it, if I'm still in the market for such an item.

"Superb" makes me break out the Potion of Enlightenment and start hunting for vaults.

[fizzix]

and getting them fixed (== meaningful) is on the radar but a ways off...

There have been some attempts at this.

Ewert tried to tackle this a while ago by changing level feelings to alert you only if there is a unique/vault/both on the level. I tried play testing this but didn't like it too much.

Right now the main problem with level feelings is trying to figure out what is interesting and what is not. A lot of this is level dependent too. An orc pit on dlevel 10 is definitely interesting, but it's not on dlevel 40. A miniature vault is interesting on dlevel 40 but not on dlevel 90. (however it would be interesting if it had, say, the palantir in it)

Having a AMHD on the level at dlevel 35 is certainly interesting, but in a different way than having an elvenkind shield. Should these be distinguishable. Also, going strictly by dlevel of monsters or items isn't good either. If you are on dlevel 45 and there are 3 !Con. I'd wager you'd consider that level to be a jackpot, but how to get the game to know that. Or should we bother? Similarly, on dlevel 45 but there are 2 packs of nexus hounds and you don't have rnexus. That's also interesting.

The best idea I came up with is to have all the monster information be given by actual dungeon clues. Melted walls for fire breathers. Also allow searching players to pick up tracks/scents of nearby monsters. This is hard for a couple reasons (do we want to add a monster/feature squelch database. If not you'll be annoyed when your search keeps on turning up the soldier ant and not the drolem) Then the "level" feeling could be entirely item based, it could be delayed, it could be aura-ed, "You feel there's something beckoning you nearby" etc.

There are a lot of options here. But there really is no consensus on what is the best way to go.

[Nomad]

Here's a random off-the-wall suggestion: level feelings based on kill count. Maybe after you kill X foes, you could pick up a general impression of the monsters' condition that alerts you to anything unusual on the level. It would be scum-proof enough that you could afford to have more specific messages about the level contents, like:

- "The monsters on this level all seem to carry rotten, acid-eaten equipment." (jelly pit)
- "The monsters on this level appear listless and dead-eyed." (undead pit)
- "The monsters on this level seem to be unusually alert." (vault)
- "The monsters on this level scurry around fearfully." (OOD monster)
- "The monsters on this level appear to be guarding something." (artefact/OOD treasure)

et cetera.

[buzzkill]

Here's a random off-the-wall suggestion: level feelings based on kill count.

Along these same lines without getting too specific. Everything starts out as, at the very least, interesting (maybe better than that). After killing X monsters, those monsters would be considered less interesting. After killing X more, they could be boring. Squelched items could also be considered boring. Not sure what to do with special rooms, aside from greater vaults, which would always be a plus.

Obviously this would produce better level feeling overall, so they might need to be toned down a notch or two to begin with. I'm not sure if it's a good idea, but it's a new idea (I think), so I'm throwing it out there.

[Chud]

Hmm, that's interesting. If nothing else, recalculating level feeling on demand would give insight into where the feeling comes form, and what might have changed. Since you can re-check the feeling with ^F, how about ^F recalculates the feeling before showing it to you?

That way if it goes from superb to boring after you found a ring of power on dl10 you can know that there's no reason to stick around. Similarly, if it goes up, you can assume that something dangerous spawned.

Maybe it's not necessary for the calculation of level feelings to be all that rational if you can check on how it changes when you find things and/or kill things. At a minimum, it would help you know that you already took care of whatever was interesting, even if you don't think it turned out to be very interesting.

[Mondkalb]

If something dangerous spawns you could automatically get a message - like you "sense a disturbance in the force" - err - level ... ^^

[Nomad]

Along these same lines without getting too specific. Everything starts out as, at the very least, interesting (maybe better than that). After killing X monsters, those monsters would be considered less interesting. After killing X more, they could be boring. Squelched items could also be considered boring. Not sure what to do with special rooms, aside from greater vaults, which would always be a plus.

Obviously this would produce better level feeling overall, so they might need to be toned down a notch or two to begin with. I'm not sure if it's a good idea, but it's a new idea (I think), so I'm throwing it out there.

Hey, that's a really neat idea. You could classify the "interesting"-ness of items based on whether you've ID'd them yet in addition to whether they're OOD. And maybe there could be some kind of tracking counter for special rooms, so the special feeling goes down the more of them you encounter? First lesser vault is a "superb" feeling, the next two are "very good", four and five are just "good", and after that they're getting to be old news.

Plus, tailored level feelings would reward exploration and thorough clearing and make it harder to scum/recklessly dive for a good result, because your ability to recognise a good level would depend on how much experience of the dungeon you've gained. Everybody would get inflated level feelings in the beginning when the levels are littered with un-ID'd items and new monsters, but the players who take the time to check out what's around would start to get more sensible and helpful feelings than the ones who just plunge onward without exploring.

[Bostock]

If something dangerous spawns you could automatically get a message - like you "sense a disturbance in the force" - err - level ... ^^

We've lost our shields!... err, and we need to stop squelching them for a while. Yeah.

[buzzkill]

Hey, that's a really neat idea. You could classify the "interesting"-ness of items based on whether you've ID'd them yet in addition to whether they're OOD. And maybe there could be some kind of tracking counter for special rooms, so the special feeling goes down the more of them you encounter? First lesser vault is a "superb" feeling, the next two are "very good", four and five are just "good", and after that they're getting to be old news.

Plus, tailored level feelings would reward exploration and thorough clearing and make it harder to scum/recklessly dive for a good result, because your ability to recognise a good level would depend on how much experience of the dungeon you've gained. Everybody would get inflated level feelings in the beginning when the levels are littered with un-ID'd items and new monsters, but the players who take the time to check out what's around would start to get more sensible and helpful feelings than the ones who just plunge onward without exploring.

Great work! You've reclaimed your own idea as your own and added in the bits and pieces that were eluding me. I think that this just might work. It certainly couldn't be any worse than what we have now. As with the trouble with pricing, the trouble with level feeling is that they need to relate to the individual character. They are not one size fits all.