Ego Dragon Scale Mails

[Spacebux]

We could easily replace Pseudo DSM with Ethereal DSM and, if so desired, make it weightless.

That would be pretty cool... though, I wonder if one could actually "see" Ethereal armor in general without SeeInvis... Kind of like Wonder Woman flying her "invisible jet"; how'd she ever see the controls?

Yes, I am a smart ass (arse).

[Derakon]

We could easily replace Pseudo DSM with Ethereal DSM and, if so desired, make it weightless.

[fph]

What about a weightless ethereal dragon scale mail? Not an ego, but from the flavor point of view it makes some sense.

[Derakon]

Hm, I'd consider it to add flavor even if the only way to notice was to compare the weights of different items that are nominally the same type. Just because the game doesn't direct your attention to it doesn't mean it's not there. But that's frankly pretty minor.

[PowerDiver]

Eddie: I think I'd notice weight sometimes. Certainly I'd notice the difference between an entirely weightless DSM and a normal one. Even minor variations can be good for flavor, though, regardless of how much of an impact they have on your decision making.

You are talking about impact. I am talking about whether the player notices.

The way to get flavor is if you get a message telling you it weighs less than you think it ought to. If you never notice the difference, it is as if the difference never existed in the first place. People who say the current armors vary by a few ounces could be considered correct, at a minimum they are not incorrect, but because that info is never imparted to the player, it has no flavor.

[Derakon]

So the character is never to know what any of their gear weighs beyond "light", "bulky", etc? They aren't even allowed to say "This weighs just about exactly as much as 10 of my CCW potions"? Given two items to compare, you can act as a pretty accurate scale just by holding the items in your two hands -- and you can devise some means of units. If it's not pounds then it can be something like daggers or potions. This information is readily-available to any character willing to take a few turns to compare the new item to their gear, and given that our characters are already taking notes on everything else they see I have real trouble with them not being willing to weigh their gear too.

[buzzkill]

Buzzkill: I'm operating on the assumption that identified items will have known weights, so the player can just e.g. compare their weapon to the item and readily get a rough idea of how heavy it is (and then compare their weapon + shield, weapon + light source, etc. to narrow it down further).

I still don't see what hiding weight from the player buys us.

That's a faulty assumption. It always been my take that the reason for displaying weight of items was as an aid for calculating encumbrance and blows (maybe some other behind the scenes stuff) and for flavor. That must be what it's for, as it serves no other purpose.

It's information provided to you, the player, for your convenience, but not known to the character (beyond what rough estimation he can make). The game knows exactly what the item weighs, and this information has always been passed on to you because there was never a reason not to.

If, as you're suggesting, items will be able to be partially or fully ID'd by weight alone, then I feel it's a compelling reason to withhold that information.

I'm not saying that it's unreasonable for a player to notice if a suit of heavy armour weighs next to nothing. What I'm trying to prevent is a character picking up some thing that weighs 18 lbs. and knowing exactly what it is because it's the only item in the games that weighs exactly 18 lbs.

Hiding the weight keeps that knowledge, which isn't really known, from being abused for the purposes of ID.

[Yogalover]

My ideas ;-)

How about implementing the possibility of double egos like this:

Class specific Ex: Blessed DSM (+WIS, ability), Wizard DSM (+INT, lighter), Razor DSM (+HIT&DAM), Greased DSM (+DEX, +Stealth), usable by all but right class get hidden bonus to a relevant STAT.

Race specific Ex: DSM of Dwarves (+STR, +CON, FA), DSM of Elves (RBASE, XTRRES, +Stealth), DSM of Kobolds (+CON, SI, Rdark), DSM of Humans (+ALL STATS), DSM of the Small (+DEX, +INFRA, + Stealth, lighter), DSM of Goblinkin (+STR, +CON, SUSTCON) right raise get hidden ability.

A Wizard DSM of the Small would be (+INT, +DEX, + INFRA, +Stealth, very light) and if used by gnome or hobbit it could have ESP or REG.

Marcus

[Derakon]

Spacebux: we have enough trouble keeping threads on-topic as it is. Could you please create a new one for your ideas? They're only tangentially related to DSM egos, and while there's some interesting ideas there they'd get lost here.

Also, the spell list thing is separate and has more to do with the nightlies than anything else, so discussion should go in the current nightly thread.

Eddie: I think I'd notice weight sometimes. Certainly I'd notice the difference between an entirely weightless DSM and a normal one. Even minor variations can be good for flavor, though, regardless of how much of an impact they have on your decision making.

My suggestion in the ticket was to have the weight field apply a percentage modifier to the base item weight. Doing it by pvals would also work; I don't feel strongly about it.

[PowerDiver]

I asked "If the difference is not noticeable, why put it there in the first place?"

For flavor?

How can it be flavorful for an object to have an attribute you do not notice?

FWIW I suggest that the flag correspond to a pval that reduces weight by pval * 10%.

[Spacebux]

My Rant about DSM suits, playability, and mage spells.

What I'm reading into this discussion is:

There ought to be a bit more variation in DSM suit generation.

I like the ideas of additional flags, ego attributes to DSM suits, .. and to armor in general. Even with Random Artifacts on, I believe the game is more interesting when a wider variety of ego- / combination gear is available. I like the idea that Base Resistances should be stronger in DSM suits. I like that some should even offer ego types not offered in normal armor. DSM suits with varied damage activations also seems like a great idea. One GreenDSM suit might have a PoisonBall (80), where another might sport a PoisonBall (120). Maybe have a deviation akin to speed ring rolls, where damage is determined by a base of xx, then have subsequent rolls to determine to the damage value when the suit is generated.

However, I think the current release seeds the game with too many iterations of DSM suits. I think the game currently has way too many DSM suits generated, and, moreover, too many Dwarven DSM suits. I was looking for the squelch option for Dwarven gear in my last game.

Would it be asking too much for DROP_GOOD / DROP_GREAT to possibly generate say Soft Leather Armor Elvenkind with 2 higher resistances? or a possible combo - Combat Soft Leather Armor of Elvenkind, where it has both a high resistance and a bonus on to-hit or to-dam die rolls? Say those suits would be generated rarity level like A:20:60 to 100 or so. Metal Lamellar Armour of Resist Cold and Acid, for example, might also be of interest to some adventurers. Personally, I cannot think of the last time I didn't have Metal Lamellar Armour squelched ....

What about giving random activations to random, mundane weapons/armor? Maybe it's a dagger (+2, +3), but it upon further investigation, one notices it has been enchanted to activate for phase door every 74 to 86 turns. Or a dagger with an extra-special weight balance that permits a +1 swing-speed each round. The odds of finding such an enhanced item (weapon or armor) would depend on depth and a pretty rare RNG roll.

I'm not trying to break the game by any means... make it too easy, some would say. My point is to add in randomness into item generation, making the game more enjoyable for the increase in surprise factor of finding new and interesting items.

I like the list of added ego types mentioned earlier, for the most part. Some might be going too far, but in general, adding new types while taking rarity into account, will not necessarily ruin the balance of the game.


BTW, please put Heroism/Beserker Rage, and all the enchantment spells back into Tensers. I'm tired of just tossing that aside for an extra slot in my games as a Mage. Those spells do not, by any means, break the game in favor of the Mage players. Same for Detect Object in Magic for Beginners. It won't/doesn't spoil the game. Cure Light Wounds ought to be a different spell, ... maybe something like a Mystic Shield that provides RDark/RLite or RNexus for xx d yy turns. ManaShield to provide RMana based on PlayerLevel - the higher the caster, the higher the percentage of damage reduction. Or Ventriloquism which draws mobs to another spot xx - yy squares away from the caster in a direction / target selected by the caster for level d 3-5 turns. You know - something Mage-like. You are right to take CLW away from Mages; but, rather than take it away out-right, give them something else in return. A utility spell or something.

Again, my point is to add to the game; not detract by taking skills / options away from the player. Make it more interesting without ruining it.

Also - most of the spells in Kelek's book are a waste. Earthquake (sounds like another priest spell), Rend Soul, Bedlam, Word of D (another Earthquake effect) are some that I never bother learning to reduce chances of typos. Bedlam would be better if it also did real damage, like a BronzeDSM Tech-Shot. Mages need a better mana bolt spell, something between MagicMissile and ManaStorm... or just improve Magic Missile effectiveness.

[Derakon]

The only point of putting weight differences into an ego is if it makes a noticeable difference. If the difference is not noticeable, why put it there in the first place?

For flavor? And given that I planned to add a weightless ego type for DSMs, it would certainly be noticeable.

Buzzkill: I'm operating on the assumption that identified items will have known weights, so the player can just e.g. compare their weapon to the item and readily get a rough idea of how heavy it is (and then compare their weapon + shield, weapon + light source, etc. to narrow it down further).

I still don't see what hiding weight from the player buys us.

[PowerDiver]

The only point of putting weight differences into an ego is if it makes a noticeable difference. If the difference is not noticeable, why put it there in the first place?

[buzzkill]

Given the player is always carrying around a supply of items with known weights

Really? Known weights??? Known how?

EDIT: Perhaps if the player was carrying around a set of assorted weights and a scale... which I don't necessarily oppose (if you feel the player HAS to know the EXACT weight of items). We could sell them at the general store .

[Derakon]

Maybe weight shouldn't be obvious, if this is where it's going to lead.

Given the player is always carrying around a supply of items with known weights, they should be able to use those to gauge the weight of anything they pick up. So I'm not really seeing the value-add here.